New EU memeber
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30-06-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ah you have come across the crux of the problem.

No - we see that you, too, are buying into misinformation.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No Nation is willing to Cede its Sovereignty to the EU and without absolute say in how the situation is handled you get piecemeal and ineffective response.

One might say the same of the US states during the Articles of Confederation era.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Lets use the German demand of absolute Austerity as a perfect example.

Not true. There was never such a demand.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Austerity does not work economically, it is treating a gunshot wound with a cannonball.

I agree, but that is merely an opinion.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The only member of the EU that wants to go down that proven horrible road is Germany

Not true.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Germany can veto any other solution and basically take it's ball and go home.

Completely and utterly
not true.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Now a Nation of equal size to the EU (Canada or America for example) does not have this problem since it does not need to cede it's authority to a central extra-governmental power. The US responded to the crisis with a bailout and then a stimulus (not a large enough one but still better than the alternative) and has actually come out ahead of Europe because of this.

That's not an argument for abolishment. That's an argument for further integration.
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30-06-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: New EU memeber
Ok, for everyone complaining that Austerity didn't work and the EU should have used stimulus:

The debts here were far higher than in the US, waay over 100% GDP.
Germany got it's act together. (IIRC) Angela Merkel took office in 2005. And in 2006 or 2007 she announced budgetcuts of around 80 billion EUR.
She saw what was coming and was ahead of the curve. Now they are doing well, they have a surplus.

Then the English refused to have their banks merge with the americans in 2007, saved them from some troubles.

Then, when shit hit the fan, it turns out that there was some crazy shit going on in Greece, barely any sales tax, enormous fraud, with disability and unemployment benefits, and so on, and so on.

I could go on about Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland... But you get the point.

Now, for monetary responsibility: stop picking and fighting voluntary wars.

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30-06-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 01:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ah you have come across the crux of the problem.

No - we see that you, too, are buying into misinformation.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No Nation is willing to Cede its Sovereignty to the EU and without absolute say in how the situation is handled you get piecemeal and ineffective response.

One might say the same of the US states during the Articles of Confederation era.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Lets use the German demand of absolute Austerity as a perfect example.

Not true. There was never such a demand.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Austerity does not work economically, it is treating a gunshot wound with a cannonball.

I agree, but that is merely an opinion.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The only member of the EU that wants to go down that proven horrible road is Germany

Not true.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Germany can veto any other solution and basically take it's ball and go home.

Completely and utterly
not true.

(30-06-2013 01:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Now a Nation of equal size to the EU (Canada or America for example) does not have this problem since it does not need to cede it's authority to a central extra-governmental power. The US responded to the crisis with a bailout and then a stimulus (not a large enough one but still better than the alternative) and has actually come out ahead of Europe because of this.

That's not an argument for abolishment. That's an argument for further integration.

What I meant by Germany threatening to take it's ball and go home was a very real threat that they would leave the EU and that would have killed it.

As for further integration it would have to basically replace the national governments with a pan-european one and that is not a trade union.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 01:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  What I meant by Germany threatening to take it's ball and go home was a very real threat that they would leave the EU and that would have killed it.

But the German economy is so thoroughly connected with the rest of Europe that that would be suicide. I have never seen any proposal by any German politicians to leave the EU or any EU organizations (Eurozone etc). Nor have any of the other longstanding members (France, Italy, Benelux - or Denmark, Sweden, Austria...) considered it. At most, I have seen calls for countries like Greece to leave the Eurozone (which they joined prematurely) - or pure fringe nonsense like what UKIP's been saying lately. And even that would cause much greater disruption than staying in - hence, it hasn't happened.

(30-06-2013 01:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As for further integration it would have to basically replace the national governments with a pan-european one and that is not a trade union.

No. It's progress. No one has ever been worse off for having joined a larger democratic federation.
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30-06-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 01:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 01:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  What I meant by Germany threatening to take it's ball and go home was a very real threat that they would leave the EU and that would have killed it.

But the German economy is so thoroughly connected with the rest of Europe that that would be suicide. I have never seen any proposal by any German politicians to leave the EU or any EU organizations (Eurozone etc). Nor have any of the other longstanding members (France, Italy, Benelux - or Denmark, Sweden, Austria...) considered it. At most, I have seen calls for countries like Greece to leave the Eurozone (which they joined prematurely) - or pure fringe nonsense like what UKIP's been saying lately. And even that would cause much greater disruption than staying in - hence, it hasn't happened.

(30-06-2013 01:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As for further integration it would have to basically replace the national governments with a pan-european one and that is not a trade union.

No. It's progress. No one has ever been worse off for having joined a larger democratic federation.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/breaking-...cal-union/

http://metro.co.uk/2010/12/04/angela-mer...ng-598658/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/0...PN20120703

I can link more but this is what I was talking about.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: New EU memeber
Okay, but -

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://investmentwatchblog.com/breaking-...cal-union/

... doesn't say that. It doesn't in fact say much of anything.

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://metro.co.uk/2010/12/04/angela-mer...ng-598658/

... doesn't say that. It mentions an impulsive verbal remark from Merkel during an argument. That's not government policy (and it was tacitly repudiated).

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/0...PN20120703

... doesn't say that. It's about internal affairs - the Bavarian CSU threatening withdrawing from the governing German coalition because they don't go as far in support of strengthening joint financial institutions as the government's major members.

It is not, nor has it ever been, a serious (domestic) policy proposal, by Germany, to leave or weaken any common European institutions. They're far too integrated, and they know it.
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30-06-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 02:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Okay, but -

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://investmentwatchblog.com/breaking-...cal-union/

... doesn't say that. It doesn't in fact say much of anything.

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://metro.co.uk/2010/12/04/angela-mer...ng-598658/

... doesn't say that. It mentions an impulsive verbal remark from Merkel during an argument. That's not government policy (and it was tacitly repudiated).

(30-06-2013 01:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/0...PN20120703

... doesn't say that. It's about internal affairs - the Bavarian CSU threatening withdrawing from the governing German coalition because they don't go as far in support of strengthening joint financial institutions as the government's major members.

It is not, nor has it ever been, a serious (domestic) policy proposal, by Germany, to leave or weaken any common European institutions. They're far too integrated, and they know it.

Yes but it has been a veiled threat on a few occasions. Add to the fact that the last G8 meeting Germany was singled out as being the only proponent of Austerity. As of yet you have not shown how the EU as it currently stands is in anyway a benefit to it's member nations.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 02:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes but it has been a veiled threat on a few occasions. Add to the fact that the last G8 meeting Germany was singled out as being the only proponent of Austerity. As of yet you have not shown how the EU as it currently stands is in anyway a benefit to it's member nations.

If a cranky Angela Merkel says something impulsive to stonewalling Greeks, that doesn't make it policy.

The 2013 G8 didn't really talk finance; things were rather overshadowed by Syria...

Free (or free-er) movement of goods and people benefits all EU member states. Common foreign policy increases their global influence. Harmonized regulations improve business and trade. A shared currency benefits interconnected economies - when paired with common bonds and distributed (and therefore minimized) risk.

How does being part of the United States benefit individual states?
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30-06-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 02:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 02:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes but it has been a veiled threat on a few occasions. Add to the fact that the last G8 meeting Germany was singled out as being the only proponent of Austerity. As of yet you have not shown how the EU as it currently stands is in anyway a benefit to it's member nations.

If a cranky Angela Merkel says something impulsive to stonewalling Greeks, that doesn't make it policy.

The 2013 G8 didn't really talk finance; things were rather overshadowed by Syria...

Free (or free-er) movement of goods and people benefits all EU member states. Common foreign policy increases their global influence. Harmonized regulations improve business and trade. A shared currency benefits interconnected economies - when paired with common bonds and distributed (and therefore minimized) risk.

How does being part of the United States benefit individual states?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I already explained why 1 works and 1 does not. The EU is not sovereign for the individual member nations the way the federal government is sovereign over the states. For it to work you would have to eliminate the nation state status and reform Europe into 1 giant Federation. That however is not what the EU claims to be or is attempting to do.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 02:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You're comparing apples and oranges.

The things I mentioned are clear benefits, whether integration proceeds any further or no.

(30-06-2013 02:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That however is not what the EU ... is attempting to do.

Except it is. Federation was a stated goal of the original ECSC back in the 50s. Fiscal transfers and common bonds will happen, because such are necessary alongside a currency union. Integration is a one-way process.
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