New EU memeber
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30-06-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 03:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 02:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You're comparing apples and oranges.

The things I mentioned are clear benefits, whether integration proceeds any further or no.

(30-06-2013 02:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That however is not what the EU ... is attempting to do.

Except it is. Federation was a stated goal of the original ECSC back in the 50s. Fiscal transfers and common bonds will happen, because such are necessary alongside a currency union. Integration is a one-way process.

I'm sorry but I just can't follow your logic here. You seem to be arguing in favor of not what the EU actually is but some utopian version of it. I would be in favor of a strong federalised Europe but the EU is not that and will never be that without fundamentally changing what it stands for and how membership works.

The EU is a bureaucratic nightmare where regulations are more important than results. It is basically the worst of all worlds, it has the inhuman bureaucracy of the US system tied to the petty squabbles of the Self Sovereign nations.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 05:09 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'm sorry but I just can't follow your logic here. You seem to be arguing in favor of not what the EU actually is but some utopian version of it.

Yeah, there's no way it's an ideal construct. No question. On balance I'd call it in its present state a net positive regardless.

People can be painfully dumb; that's why there are as many Germans blaming the "damn lazy, shiftless Greeks" as there are Greeks blaming the "damn imperialist, fascist Germans" for the present problems, though of course neither is correct.

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I would be in favor of a strong federalised Europe but the EU is not that and will never be [emphasis added] that ...

I say again: integration is a one-way road. It's half-way there now, and it's already too much trouble to go backwards.

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  ... without fundamentally changing what it stands for and how membership works.

That's the thing: it's already the goal (of at least some members at least some of the time). The treaty of Rome (superseded, but never repudiated!) calls for "ever-closer union".

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The EU is a bureaucratic nightmare where regulations are more important than results. It is basically the worst of all worlds, it has the inhuman bureaucracy of the US system tied to the petty squabbles of the Self Sovereign nations.

It's... not really that bureaucratic, though. No more so than anywhere else in particular. Yes, it is another layer on top of local, regional, state, national, what have you. But the only comparable institution (in size and scope, if not so much in strict powers) is the federal government of India - and it ain't that bureaucratic!

That it has that reputation, sure. But feelgood rumour-mongering long ago replaced actual facts and analysis in most public perceptions of the EU and its institutions.
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30-06-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 05:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'm sorry but I just can't follow your logic here. You seem to be arguing in favor of not what the EU actually is but some utopian version of it.

Yeah, there's no way it's an ideal construct. No question. On balance I'd call it in its present state a net positive regardless.

People can be painfully dumb; that's why there are as many Germans blaming the "damn lazy, shiftless Greeks" as there are Greeks blaming the "damn imperialist, fascist Germans" for the present problems, though of course neither is correct.

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I would be in favor of a strong federalised Europe but the EU is not that and will never be [emphasis added] that ...

I say again: integration is a one-way road. It's half-way there now, and it's already too much trouble to go backwards.

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  ... without fundamentally changing what it stands for and how membership works.

That's the thing: it's already the goal (of at least some members at least some of the time). The treaty of Rome (superseded, but never repudiated!) calls for "ever-closer union".

(30-06-2013 03:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The EU is a bureaucratic nightmare where regulations are more important than results. It is basically the worst of all worlds, it has the inhuman bureaucracy of the US system tied to the petty squabbles of the Self Sovereign nations.

It's... not really that bureaucratic, though. No more so than anywhere else in particular. Yes, it is another layer on top of local, regional, state, national, what have you. But the only comparable institution (in size and scope, if not so much in strict powers) is the federal government of India - and it ain't that bureaucratic!

That it has that reputation, sure. But feelgood rumour-mongering long ago replaced actual facts and analysis in most public perceptions of the EU and its institutions.


I'll be honest with you I still think the EU is fundamentally flawed and will end up collapsing. The Idea of a federalised Europe is a good one and the EU may end up just being the League of Nations only to be superseded by an all-around better organization. As it stands now I would not want my nation to tie it's fortunes to this sinking ship.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 05:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'll be honest with you I still think the EU is fundamentally flawed and will end up collapsing. The Idea of a federalised Europe is a good one and the EU may end up just being the League of Nations only to be superseded by an all-around better organization. As it stands now I would not want my nation to tie it's fortunes to this sinking ship.

But how is it flawed? It's shonky and haphazard, but it's fundamentally tied to the democratic governments of the member states.
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30-06-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 05:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 05:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'll be honest with you I still think the EU is fundamentally flawed and will end up collapsing. The Idea of a federalised Europe is a good one and the EU may end up just being the League of Nations only to be superseded by an all-around better organization. As it stands now I would not want my nation to tie it's fortunes to this sinking ship.

But how is it flawed? It's shonky and haphazard, but it's fundamentally tied to the democratic governments of the member states.

It has no way to enforce itself other than threats of removal from the collective. It is very similar to the original CSA in American history. If you have a centralised power it cannot be weaker than the parts that comprise it and the EU is weaker than it's constituent parts.

ps to ELK and cjlr this is why I have so many posts I always end up in these back and forth debates. Smile

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 05:46 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 05:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It has no way to enforce itself other than threats of removal from the collective. It is very similar to the original CSA in American history. If you have a centralised power it cannot be weaker than the parts that comprise it and the EU is weaker than it's constituent parts.

Hence my reference to the Articles of Confederation, actually... How did that resolve itself? Big Grin

(30-06-2013 05:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  ps to ELK and cjlr this is why I have so many posts I always end up in these back and forth debates. Smile

Well NOW I'M DOING IT TOO Tongue.
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30-06-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 05:46 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Hence my reference to the Articles of Confederation, actually... How did that resolve itself? Big Grin

The Government Dissolved and was replaced by a Federal system. More or less what I am saying will happen with the EU.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-06-2013, 06:40 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 06:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Government Dissolved and was replaced by a Federal system. More or less what I am saying will happen with the EU.

It dissolved and reconstituted itself. Not quite a 'collapse'...
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30-06-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: New EU memeber
(30-06-2013 06:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-06-2013 06:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Government Dissolved and was replaced by a Federal system. More or less what I am saying will happen with the EU.

It dissolved and reconstituted itself. Not quite a 'collapse'...

It was preventative collapse was imminent.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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01-07-2013, 12:15 AM
RE: New EU memeber
Congratz Filox, I think?
I know next to nothing about it, but I assume that economically Croatia (which is not exactly an economic powerhouse country) would be better off in the sense that free trade agreements and such would out weight bailing out the countries that can't balance their books.

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