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13-06-2013, 03:46 AM
RE: New Member
(12-06-2013 05:37 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 12:42 PM)Timinator Wrote:  I honestly believe that God gives u a chance to follow him when u die, it's as simple as accepting him as a Savior. Some people would prefer not to do that though and would live a much happier afterlife in hell.

If such is the case, why does the deity not simple make us believe in it if that is truly what it wants? It surely had no qualms with forcing them before the physically impossible snake tempted them into eating an apple.

In fact, why does god not simply give us all the option? Say hypothetically, at the age of 25 years, when the brain is properly developed, god appears to us all, show us all the evidence of Its existence and a couple arguments for believing in It?

As a side question; why does your god apparently feel the need send people to hell? I can somewhat understand the reward of heaven, but hell makes no sense. Why punish somebody for eternity for a choice which shouldn't matter or an answer that they can't help? Why not let the believers into heaven and let the heretics just plain die: no eternal wandering or restless spirits or hell-fire, just let them end?

Frankly, I think hell is entirely a scare tactic for primitives; those in the bronze age, the most advanced of whom still knew little (though the knowledge of the ancient Greeks astounds me to this day). It frightens people into submission and belief to this day. I personally have absolutely no fear of hell, not only because I do not consider it viable possibility but because I know it cannot harm me after I die...

If your deity is so self-conscious and controlling that it must damn non-believers to the worst imaginable fate simply because they did not believe, your deity is simply not worthy of respect and worship but it is of ridicule and scorn.
The deity is a sadistic representation of total malice made theological, most deities are that way it seems, going by the the books of those whom were "inspired".


Should you indulge me, I have one more question, if it has been asked an answered already, then please direct me to the post: With all the thousands of religions of the world, how can you be certain you have the correct deity and book? Going one level deeper than that: How can you be certain that your interpretation is the right one? Given the vast number of interpretations of the vast number of religious texts which ultimately causes the vast number of religions, it would be near impossible for a person to pick the correct belief.

[edit: spelling]

"If such is the case, why does the deity not simple make us believe in it if that is truly what it wants? It surely had no qualms with forcing them before the physically impossible snake tempted them into eating an apple."

First of all, I just want to say that the bible doesn't refer to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an apple (I just wanted to clarify that). And what do u mean by physically impossible snake? It''s partially about what he wants, but mostly about what we want (in this case). Like I said, I believe everybody will get the opportunity to choose Jesus (i.e have a relationship with him and get to know more about him and the universe) or choose to serve themselves and go to hell where they don't have to receive teaching from God, and can grow however they choose to grown.

"In fact, why does god not simply give us all the option? Say hypothetically, at the age of 25 years, when the brain is properly developed, god appears to us all, show us all the evidence of Its existence and a couple arguments for believing in It?"

I believe he does give us all the option after we have died, so why should he have to give us the opportunity at 25? At that age, most people are still learning and making up their mind about the world around them. If u have spent 80 years learning about the world, and then when u die, God tells u that a lot of what u think u know is incorrect, u r probably going to want to go into heaven to find out the right answers. If God showed u his face at age 25, u would feel that God wasn't the only way u could get definite answers and thus would probably tell him to get lost. Most ppl would probably prefer to become their own person so to speak, as opposed to becoming the person God wants u to be.

"As a side question; why does your god apparently feel the need send people to hell? I can somewhat understand the reward of heaven, but hell makes no sense. Why punish somebody for eternity for a choice which shouldn't matter or an answer that they can't help? Why not let the believers into heaven and let the heretics just plain die: no eternal wandering or restless spirits or hell-fire, just let them end?"

Everybody would prefer to go on living, as opposed to just die (and if not, they'll get used to it) and like I said before, I do not believe hell is a place of eternal torment where u r constantly on fire. I think hell will be a lawless, Godless world. Tolerable for some, enjoyable for some and preferable to heaven for some. Thus hell makes sense because it is an afterlife that many will gladly choose over heaven.

"Frankly, I think hell is entirely a scare tactic for primitives; those in the bronze age, the most advanced of whom still knew little (though the knowledge of the ancient Greeks astounds me to this day). It frightens people into submission and belief to this day. I personally have absolutely no fear of hell, not only because I do not consider it viable possibility but because I know it cannot harm me after I die..."

That's what man has made into his idea of hell (let's face it, the threat of eternal torture would of caused many ppl to convert, it still does and thus, fills the pastors pockets). However, my point still stands that this stereotypical view of hell is incorrect, because a world without any of God's influence would be punishment enough. God wants what is best for us, but sometimes ppl don't want what God can give them, and will most likely live content lives without him.

"If your deity is so self-conscious and controlling that it must damn non-believers to the worst imaginable fate simply because they did not believe, your deity is simply not worthy of respect and worship but it is of ridicule and scorn.
The deity is a sadistic representation of total malice made theological, most deities are that way it seems, going by the the books of those whom were "inspired"

Like I said, God is not a sadist and doesn't subject anyone to eternal torment, but he is just. As I have outlined above, an eternity in a world without God would be sufficient punishment enough for anyone, because even though they may not realize it, an eternity getting to know God and learning about the mysteries of the Universe from him would be the best. Most ppl will choose what they initially want though, and will spend eternity in hell because they honestly think and feel that it is the better option.

Should you indulge me, I have one more question, if it has been asked an answered already, then please direct me to the post: With all the thousands of religions of the world, how can you be certain you have the correct deity and book? Going one level deeper than that: How can you be certain that your interpretation is the right one? Given the vast number of interpretations of the vast number of religious texts which ultimately causes the vast number of religions, it would be near impossible for a person to pick the correct belief.

The Bible is the only religious text that I know of that doesn't contradict what we know about science today. Out of all the religious texts I've read, the bible seems to be the most scientifically sound and doesn't have any blatant contradictions (the quran seems to have quite a few, but I invite any and all Muslims to argue their case). I actually think it is inconsequential (in the long one) that I have interpreted much of the scriptures this way. Jesus said that no one comes to the father except through me. I just believe that if ppl choose to truly follow Jesus in this life, they will follow him into the next.

Anyway I'm off to play fallout NV, c u guys later Smile
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13-06-2013, 04:00 AM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 03:19 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(13-06-2013 02:08 AM)Timinator Wrote:  There will most definitely be conflict between individuals in hell, and there has been conflict in heaven b4, so it seems plausible to believe that it could happen again.

What, were you there?

(13-06-2013 02:08 AM)Timinator Wrote:  This doesn't seem likely though because I believe ppl that have accepted (or will when they die) accepted Jesus as their Saviour

I know a chunk of people who accepted the flip-flop wearing beard man as their savior before they died; many of them were still complete assholes, some even ended up as mass-murderers.

(13-06-2013 02:08 AM)Timinator Wrote:  will be those ppl that ultimately want to learn abut the infinite mysteries of our universe (and it seems unlikely that in a place with an omniscient God teaching u, there will be any cause for conflict between individuals. After all, u will all have the same opinions on subjects because God, being an omniscient being, would have the right answers to any question).

Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Okay, so say the universe is infinite and filled with mysteries; doesn't that just mean there is an infinite chance that there is more that just the invisible and abusive sky-daddy out there to prove our existence? Also, you say that when everyone enters heaven, we all share an opinon about EVERYTHING? How can we then have individual opinion, the very thing that defines being human? You mean we are all mindless drones like ants or bees in service of a queen, that doesn't do anything either? I would rather go to hell and be tortured forever and still have my personality intact, than losing it and sitting still listening to stuff I will never have use for learning since I'm sitting front of a fucking god that created these needless mysteries.

I think u could spend an eternity pondering the Universe's mysteries and u will never discover everything. As to the part about us sharing an opinion about everything, there is no logical reason that someone who wants to discover the truth about everything, and learns an answer to a specific question from God would have reason to doubt this Omniscient being. Thus ppl can't really disagree if u both agree on the same answer God has provided you (which of course will be the right answer). I personally want to discover the right answers, and going to heaven will do that for you. Tow ppl who agree on the fact that evolution did occur can still have distinct personalities. Also, I believe for the majoriity of ppl going to hell would not leave their personality intact, and they will probably start tolerating and then enjoying certain activities they would of considered unthinkable in this life.
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13-06-2013, 04:11 AM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 03:37 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Frankly Tim, I'm concerned for your soul.
Me and my 10 million followers believe that Sol is the one true god and all those that aren't followers of Sol will spend eternity in torture.
I feel the need to speak out and try to save you from this. Your false god and false religion are truly sending you on a path to hel.

I don't want to see that happen.

I understand that this is the way you were raised and I don't blame you for that, but Sol is the only one that can save your soul.

Sol + u = Soul
We are connected in this way. U are the gift that Sol has given.

Your beliefs have you in a very dangerous place. Have you ever asked yourself "What if I'm wrong" ?
Why take that chance ? Your soul is at stake here and if you gamble it away, you WILL spend an eternity in hel.

Leave behind your false religion and embrace the truth of Sol.

10 million other people believe as I do. Many have given their lives in defense of their faith. Do you really think someone would die for their faith if that faith wasn't true.
Their belief is 100% certain. Is yours ?

That little bit of doubt resides in you. When you look up into the sky and ask your false god, all you get is silence.
Aren't you tired of the silence ? Aren't you tired of hoping that your false god will do something to make your life and the lives around you better ? Constantly praying, constant asking, constantly wondering why nothing that you're doing is working out right.

Sol can help you with all of that. All you have to do is put your faith in Sol and you will see the light.

All you have to do is ask.


Welcome to the forums Tim

If you can answer these 3 questions, it would help me understand you better and then I'll be in a position to help you.

Is there a reason why you don't believe in Sol ?
Did something horrible happen in your life that made you turn away from him ?
Are you angry with him ?

Thanks for the welcome, I g2g so this will be my last post 4 today.

Is there a reason why you don't believe in Sol?
Who the hel is he lol. (I know ur kidding BTW) I've never heard anyone yell Soldamnit, for Sol's sake orin Sol's name, so he obviously hasn't had enough of a dramatic effect on society to warrant my belief in him.

Did something horrible happen in your life that made you turn away from him?
I had a terrible encounter with an extremely fanatical follower of Sol called Rahn127. He bombarded me with religious doctrine and told me I was destined to go to hel. I'd rather not type about it Sad

Are you angry with him?
Not particularly, but some of his followers can be a real pain in the ass Tongue
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13-06-2013, 04:50 AM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  I think u could spend an eternity pondering the Universe's mysteries and u will never discover everything.

As opposed to saying "God exsists and created everything, end of story"?

(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  As to the part about us sharing an opinion about everything, there is no logical reason that someone who wants to discover the truth about everything, and learns an answer to a specific question from God would have reason to doubt this Omniscient being.

That doesn't explain why you said the universe has "infinite mysteries" and at the same time has a creator who made it all. If the universe has infinite mysteries there is NO BETTER REASON out there to doubt the exsitence of a god(s).

(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  Thus ppl can't really disagree if u both agree on the same answer God has provided you (which of course will be the right answer).

Again, being a controlled drone with no will.

(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  I personally want to discover the right answers, and going to heaven will do that for you.

So, let me get this straight. You want to learn the big answers alone, in your own head, no help from no one. You then go to heaven, and get all the answers from your god right away... Pardon me, but do detect a slight occurrence of what the fuck are talking about?

(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  Tow ppl who agree on the fact that evolution did occur can still have distinct personality.

So I'm supposed to tow something called ppl because it has a personality. Makes perfect sense.

(13-06-2013 04:00 AM)Timinator Wrote:  Also, I believe for the majoriity of ppl going to hell would not leave their personality intact, and they will probably start tolerating and then enjoying certain activities they would of considered unthinkable in this life.

So hell is now heaven. Eterernal Torment! Untill you find out it's really pretty rad and awesome down there. Hey Timmy, you forgot that you need to scare the living shit out of people with your hell if you want anyone to get a fetish for your sky-papi.

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13-06-2013, 05:11 AM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  First of all, I just want to say that the bible doesn't refer to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an apple (I just wanted to clarify that). And what do u mean by physically impossible snake? It''s partially about what he wants, but mostly about what we want (in this case). Like I said, I believe everybody will get the opportunity to choose Jesus (i.e have a relationship with him and get to know more about him and the universe) or choose to serve themselves and go to hell where they don't have to receive teaching from God, and can grow however they choose to grown.

Lets start with he snake, or rather, serpent. The snake is described as talking to Eve, correct? This is impossible. Serpents do not have the capacity for speech, at least not in a manner a human would be able to understand. their larynx is the wrong shape to start and their tongues would be a great hindrance to pronunciation, I also doubt if their lungs would be large or strong enough to hold the exhale which happens when a sentence is spoken... Given that Eve conversed with this serpent, it must have been able to speak in a human manner, which makes it a physically impossible snake, or serpent rather.

About this "learning from god" concept, it's an interesting concept, given that last I heard, heaven is described as merely serving god at his throne, day in night out, for the rest of eternity.

(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  I believe he does give us all the option after we have died, so why should he have to give us the opportunity at 25? At that age, most people are still learning and making up their mind about the world around them. If u have spent 80 years learning about the world, and then when u die, God tells u that a lot of what u think u know is incorrect, u r probably going to want to go into heaven to find out the right answers. If God showed u his face at age 25, u would feel that God wasn't the only way u could get definite answers and thus would probably tell him to get lost. Most ppl would probably prefer to become their own person so to speak, as opposed to becoming the person God wants u to be.

I say 25 years of age because that is when the brain is properly developed and can process actions and consequences better. also, at this time you are much less likely to be bias toward any particular deity, unless your were one of those unfortunate sods who were indoctrinated into their parents religion. Besides, if god "wants" something, I find it unlikely that It simply would not have made it so.

(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  Everybody would prefer to go on living, as opposed to just die (and if not, they'll get used to it) and like I said before, I do not believe hell is a place of eternal torment where u r constantly on fire. I think hell will be a lawless, Godless world. Tolerable for some, enjoyable for some and preferable to heaven for some. Thus hell makes sense because it is an afterlife that many will gladly choose over heaven.

Actually, no, I would prefer to die than to live eternally as that would simply remove the value from life, an infinite supply of something has infinitely less value than a limited supply, meaning none. Maybe I'll get used to it, or maybe I'll go insane from tedium and attempt to kill myself, which raises the question; Can you kill yourself in the afterlife? Or are you forced against your will to live, maybe you are brainwashed into a mindless sycophant at some point... As for an afterlife for non-believers which is not based on burning:
Quote:Revelation 21:4-8
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  That's what man has made into his idea of hell (let's face it, the threat of eternal torture would of caused many ppl to convert, it still does and thus, fills the pastors pockets). However, my point still stands that this stereotypical view of hell is incorrect, because a world without any of God's influence would be punishment enough. God wants what is best for us, but sometimes ppl don't want what God can give them, and will most likely live content lives without him.

Of course that stereotyped view of hell is what man made it to be; man made hell up to begin with while making their "improvements" upon the old Jewish Torah. Also the statement: : "... but sometimes ppl don't want what God can give them ..." Implies a limitation of what god can do, kinda removes the concept of all-power from the deity, if your deity wanted what was best for people, he'd make them happy by giving them the things they desire..

But it is interesting to not that Gods are loved most where the give absolutely nothing but starvation, disease, death and horror; third would nations with little technology and scientific advancement, with little wealth have the highest levels of religious belief in the world generally. Can't say I blame the poor sods. Under such conditions, it makes sense they'd cling desperately to the concept of deities.

(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  Like I said, God is not a sadist and doesn't subject anyone to eternal torment, but he is just. As I have outlined above, an eternity in a world without God would be sufficient punishment enough for anyone, because even though they may not realize it, an eternity getting to know God and learning about the mysteries of the Universe from him would be the best. Most ppl will choose what they initially want though, and will spend eternity in hell because they honestly think and feel that it is the better option.



(13-06-2013 03:46 AM)Timinator Wrote:  The Bible is the only religious text that I know of that doesn't contradict what we know about science today. Out of all the religious texts I've read, the bible seems to be the most scientifically sound and doesn't have any blatant contradictions (the quran seems to have quite a few, but I invite any and all Muslims to argue their case). I actually think it is inconsequential (in the long one) that I have interpreted much of the scriptures this way. Jesus said that no one comes to the father except through me. I just believe that if ppl choose to truly follow Jesus in this life, they will follow him into the next.

As for the contradictions, the bible has plenty of scientific inaccuracies and self-contradictions, for such, I refer you to several sites: Bible Babble has a couple lists of contradictions, the RationalWiki has a few, the Skeptics Annotated Bible has a long list, and here on The Thinking Atheist, Seth host of TTA compiled a list of contradictions as well. He also has a list of biblical atrocities, if you're interested.
I also have this video from NonStampCollector:




Also, it is not "inconsequential" that you have interpreted the bibals scriptures in such a way, I shall repeat me question: in plainer terms: With all the interpretations of all the sects of all the religions from all the "holy" books, how do you know yours is the correct one? By all likelihood given the vast number of sects, interpretations, religions and holy books everybody is wrong. At least to some degree.

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13-06-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 01:50 AM)Timinator Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 01:26 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  It's all in how you structured your answer. As a standalone, it didn't make sense. I'm still abit confused on what you're on about.

What religions are you talking about? I'd see the afterlife belief of Sto'Vo'Kor agreeing with paradise being the equivalent of chaos and carnage, but I want to know which religions you think have people who say they would rather spend an eternity in hell than an eternity with god.

Pretty sure they have their own gods they'd want to spend eternity with. YHWH wouldn't be their pick of the litter but rather the runt.

lol I wassn't speaking about specific religions persay, I was actually talking about violent sociopaths who would delight in a world where sick practices are tolerated or encouraged. Some ppl may also prefer to live in a world without God, even if that world is full of bloodshed and war, I think the majority of ppl would probably get used to that existence. (sorry to reference this, but look how many ppl in Germany eventually accepted, and at times encouraged the holocaust).

From a question of what your take on other religions to talking about sociopaths, I'm afraid conversation is rendered null here.

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13-06-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: New Member
It's Wall-O-Text from here on out...
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13-06-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 11:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's Wall-O-Text from here on out...

I keep thinking somebody is paying Matt to make such long and well made posts

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13-06-2013, 01:46 PM
RE: New Member
Guess my questions got skipped. Oh wells. Maybe I need to make them nastier so they'll get noticed.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-06-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: New Member
(13-06-2013 01:40 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(13-06-2013 11:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's Wall-O-Text from here on out...

I keep thinking somebody is paying Matt to make such long and well made posts

I wish.

Right now, I'm just doing it out of the goodness of me ol' heart.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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