New Testament History revisited
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23-10-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(21-10-2016 10:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Still no citations. Back to my porn screenDrinking Beverage

You go buddy.
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23-10-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(23-10-2016 11:41 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Get a life.

... said the man who claims to have worked for the UN, who is unable to provide ANY reference AT ALL, for the garbage he cooks up. Yes indeedy. Rolleyes

Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-10-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
And I worked for Oscar Peterson.
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23-10-2016, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2016 12:53 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: New Testament History revisited
Do unto others Bucky.

I said I was an intern and worked for Maurice Strong who was Undersecretary General of the United Nations who asked me personally to do work for him. My dad got me the job. He worked for both Maurice Strong and Robert O. Anderson.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociop...tion37.htm

Go suck on a lemon.

Get a life.
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23-10-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
Bucky, if you have lived a long life, you meet a lot of people. So what? Does it bother you that you are still slaving away to get a useless degree?

What you need to take away from all this is that the God of the Israelites was Horus, regardless of my family connections.
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23-10-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
What I don't get, Bucky, is how you can say that Josephus was wrong in his understanding of who the Jews were when he wrote that they came from Armenia and that they left Egypt and established Jerusalem.

How does that work? He's commander of the Jewish forces in Galilee during the Jewish revolt. Are you saying he had heretical views on his own ancestry? Did everyone he spoke to about this think it was...a bit of a stretch?

I think you just talk trash.

So, you do to me as you would have medo unto you.

Here goes: Moron, idiot.

Suck it up little man and get a life.
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23-10-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(21-10-2016 12:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Epicureanism rose to be the favoured "philosohy" of the intelligensia during the days of the late Republic. Stoicism became unpopular (I said gnosticism in my post). The point is that when you have a society which has become, at it's heart, secular and rational, and it is overtaken by a man like Julius Caesar who makes himself into a dictator and takes the society into an era of depravity, I wonder what happened to the followers of Epicureanism because it more or less disappeared so it seems.

"Epicureans had an important influence on Christianity. The Christian idea that holy people should separate themselves from the world, not think about their bodies or about the things they own or their friends and family and focus just on Heaven owes something to Epicureanism. But Christians hated Epicureans for denying the existence of heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul, and for their reliance on pleasure as a good thing. So Epicureanism became less popular partly because of the rise of Christianity, and later medieval philosophers like Petrarch mostly made fun of Epicureanism and rejected it." K E Carr

The Romans controlled Judea and Egypt and the War with the Jews wasn't a war with Rabbinical Jews. It was a war with a warring class of the people of the Near East who had some kind of religious zeal stemming from whatever religion it is that Jesus is born into, which is a religion which appears similar to the Egyptian Pharoah cult of Horus.

At the end of the Claudian period there is a vacuum and out of it emerges a religion which owes something to Epicureanism and is pro-Roman, Hellenistic... The NT is a polemic work which is anti both Roman Claudian Emperor worship and anti "whatever the hell religion it was that Jesus was born into". The old religions which deify men are replaced by one which deifies a Hellenistic concept of "logos" and a rational moral philosophy.

I missed this post. Sorry about that. (I was obviously busy doing something useful)

Okay, let's begin with the destruction of the temple.

Josephus tells us that while the Romans were camped outside, no less than 3 different religious factions were fighting within the temple for control.

Monty Python alluded to this fact in The life of Brian.

The Romans simply waited for their chance.

Once the murderous chaos of the factions had killed many of the enemy soldiers, the Romans, using a spy, entered and wiped out a large portion of the population and the temple was burned to the ground.

Josephus also tells us, believe if you will, that the food shortage was so bad, mothers had begun eating their babies.

As for the beliefs of the upper class, we have letters by people such as Seneca, Cicero, Pliny the younger etc. All of which I have read. While Epicurus had influence, as did Plato and the like, the gods were still worshipped. In fact hundreds of years after the Republic, when a xian emperor (I won't say who) had the altar destroyed, it created great fear within all classes of the community who feared the end of the empire was approaching.

The above is all written by myself using no references or copy and pasting at 8 am in the morning.

As I said, I doubt you have a real understanding of the Romans. Historians are still searching for clues. "We don't really know" is the more honest answer.

Which is what I said. And that sadly, is the truth. I wish we knew more.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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24-10-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(23-10-2016 03:14 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 12:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Epicureanism rose to be the favoured "philosohy" of the intelligensia during the days of the late Republic. Stoicism became unpopular (I said gnosticism in my post). The point is that when you have a society which has become, at it's heart, secular and rational, and it is overtaken by a man like Julius Caesar who makes himself into a dictator and takes the society into an era of depravity, I wonder what happened to the followers of Epicureanism because it more or less disappeared so it seems.

"Epicureans had an important influence on Christianity. The Christian idea that holy people should separate themselves from the world, not think about their bodies or about the things they own or their friends and family and focus just on Heaven owes something to Epicureanism. But Christians hated Epicureans for denying the existence of heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul, and for their reliance on pleasure as a good thing. So Epicureanism became less popular partly because of the rise of Christianity, and later medieval philosophers like Petrarch mostly made fun of Epicureanism and rejected it." K E Carr

The Romans controlled Judea and Egypt and the War with the Jews wasn't a war with Rabbinical Jews. It was a war with a warring class of the people of the Near East who had some kind of religious zeal stemming from whatever religion it is that Jesus is born into, which is a religion which appears similar to the Egyptian Pharoah cult of Horus.

At the end of the Claudian period there is a vacuum and out of it emerges a religion which owes something to Epicureanism and is pro-Roman, Hellenistic... The NT is a polemic work which is anti both Roman Claudian Emperor worship and anti "whatever the hell religion it was that Jesus was born into". The old religions which deify men are replaced by one which deifies a Hellenistic concept of "logos" and a rational moral philosophy.

I missed this post. Sorry about that. (I was obviously busy doing something useful)

Okay, let's begin with the destruction of the temple.

Josephus tells us that while the Romans were camped outside, no less than 3 different religious factions were fighting within the temple for control.

Monty Python alluded to this fact in The life of Brian.

The Romans simply waited for their chance.

Once the murderous chaos of the factions had killed many of the enemy soldiers, the Romans, using a spy, entered and wiped out a large portion of the population and the temple was burned to the ground.

Josephus also tells us, believe if you will, that the food shortage was so bad, mothers had begun eating their babies.

As for the beliefs of the upper class, we have letters by people such as Seneca, Cicero, Pliny the younger etc. All of which I have read. While Epicurus had influence, as did Plato and the like, the gods were still worshipped. In fact hundreds of years after the Republic, when a xian emperor (I won't say who) had the altar destroyed, it created great fear within all classes of the community who feared the end of the empire was approaching.

The above is all written by myself using no references or copy and pasting at 8 am in the morning.

As I said, I doubt you have a real understanding of the Romans. Historians are still searching for clues. "We don't really know" is the more honest answer.

Which is what I said. And that sadly, is the truth. I wish we knew more.

I'm not saying I have a complete understanding of this period of history. My background, such that it is, is in political philosophy and I only come to the field of the Roman wars with the Jews recently as a novice, of course.

My point is that Christianity is a product of Hellenistic thought. I look at religion as a reflection of the people who believe in it and who made it up. Christianity takes a radical departure from what plainly has to have been the religion of the day, which was something which worshipped a god who was pretty horrible, according to the OT.

I also have come to the conclusion that NT Christianity was more of an invented religion and that the philosophical and moral basis of it comes out of Alexandria. I am of the view that it was written up/adopted by the Romans as an antidote for whatever the dominant religion was of the people of Judea and the Levant and was intended to be used to subdue these people by giving them a peaceful religion.

So, if you look at the structure of Christianity, starting with the concept of the god as the word or logos and then look at the moral philosophy which flows from it you have something which is quite interesting. Jesus tells parables involving a wedding party, for instance, and servants making money for their master. He does not observe Jewish rituals. At its core, the moral philosophy of this new religion has rational, anti-ritualistic overtones. This is not a philosophy I had studied at university so I looked around for something which resembled it and I found that Epicureanism was the dominant philosophy of the day, prior to the Claudians, who were just Mafioso types who considered themselves to be gods.

When you read about Epicureanism, it is often said that it is the foundation of modernism in that it rejects rituals. It also seems to have disappeared or those who followed it became Christians. I think Christianity is a blend of an older religion with rituals and this new rationalism. To me it is a political work, and a very sophisticated one which hooks people on all sorts of levels. The use of a new god idea is introduced almost on a subliminal level. God is the word, the word is god etc. Christians tend to see this simply as a description of the same OT god who "speaks" the word, so they overlook this change in the essence of what god is. Reason replaces paganism or whatever you want to call what the OT describes with its sacrifices, rituals etc. Who knows what it was really like back then. I read somewhere that Cleopatra became a "Priestess" by sleeping with 1000 men and had sex with 50 visiting Roman Senators.

I just find the idea of looking at the Jesus figure as being based on a travelling Buddhist preacher type to be unlikely. He is said to be of a royal line. His disciples carry swords. He can walk into the Temple and throw benches around. This is someone who is engaged in a political struggle but who has Hellenistic ideas and those ideas have to have come out of Alexandria, which explains both why the NT is written in Greek and the now growing view, Acharya S for instance, that the story is a rewrite of the myth of Horus.

Atwill says that it is a plot to enslave Europe. I think it was part of a propaganda campaign to subdue the Near East. I am less inclined to think that the religion sprung up spontaneously out of the preachings of a wandering preacher with some hangers on and that the gospels were written by literate friends. I think that is implausible and there is just no evidence of this person at the time it is supposed to be set.

It's obviously impossible to reconstruct what went on back then because much of what was written isn't available and the Romans imposed Christianity wiped out heretical views. We have also had 1400 years of Islam in the area up until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and then two world wars, the Middle East conflict, etc. and much of the area is still unexamined by archaelogists. On top of that most people involved in reconstructing the history of the time have preconceived ideas about it. Some have their own agendas. Much of what has been done has not gone down well because it brings out a history of the area which we associate with Aryanism. So all in all, its a mess.

My interest, though, isn't in the history. I became interested in this because I live in a Muslim country and it feels like I live among "Jews". The traditions such as holidays celebrating Abraham, not eating pork, ritual circumcisions of six year olds, the call to prayer and the general ethos of the people isn't Hellenistic at all. It is something I haven't experienced before and it really opened my eyes. The rise of ISIS and what is going on in Syria, which is next door to where I live is quite interesting to me because it shows Islam to be a throwback to an older and much more ritualistic and brutal religion while Christianity has been driven out and suppressed. You won't find anyone here, any Muslim, and I think this goes for every Muslim country who has read the New Testament. They tend to look at Christians in the same way they see themselves, as an ethnicity. They don't have any idea about what Christianity is about on a moral level or what it's core values are. They just see Christians as followers of Jesus, just like they follow Mohammed.

I would say that Muslims are nice people on an individual basis... but I can't even say that. Yes, they are friendly enough but you are an outsider to them unless you are a member of their extended family. They don't have a concept of treating people decently. Here, for instance, we have sex slavery, late stage abortion clinics where they kill the child after it is born and burn the bodies. They drink alcohol, gamble, have mistresses. In business they are always trying to con people out of money. There are thousands of people here who have been sold homes but have not been given title deeds or have had the property remortgaged after they have paid there money and moved in. The interest rates are usurious, up to 50%. You can't do anything about it if you get into trouble because they treat you as an "infidel" and they all close ranks against you. It is a real wild west with more guns than there households. At the same time, though, they are very family oriented and watch smutty American sitcoms, drive big cars, want the best clothes and jewellery, go on expensive holidays. It's a dystopia and Islam is its foundation. In contrast, Christianity is like a shining beacon even with the miracles and I can see why, if this has always been the prevailing mentality, exactly what gave rise to Chritianity because it can only have been much worse 2000 years ago.
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24-10-2016, 01:50 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
Okay, I get it.

When you have studied more on the subject you will see many belief systems found their way into xianity. What Epicurus, an atheist, said, played a rather small role. Stoicism, for example, had more of an influence IMHO.

I will gladly help you Delta. My love of this history is extremely deep. Perhaps an interesting starting point for you would to read a text by a later Flavian Emperor. Julian, nephew of Constantius.

Although this text was written hundreds of years after the fall of the republic, Julian was a scholar in both xianity and the pagan religions. Happily it is now free on the internet and you can read what remains of it HERE.

As I said, if you really have an interest you can PM me and I will happily guide you through various important texts.

I am at your service.

Cheers. Dale

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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24-10-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(22-10-2016 04:51 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Chas, you poor man.

You obviously have a science background. Moral, political and social discourse is not limited by what is in peer reviewed works. We have something called "free speech" and "freedom of conscience".

It works like this. If a person reads a book like the New Testament, and wants to comment on the incongruity of Jesus walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead and being resurrected with the Old Testament and its description of Judaism, as essentially a long trail of barbaric, feudal, mysogynistic, pederasts then one is entitled to ask these questions. If these people were waiting for a messiah, one might think that a peace preacher like Jesus would be the last thing they expected. No?

I mean, seriously, guy. Have you done LSD or something?

You seem to think that discussion in Humanities and Social Sciences faculties involves citing peer reviewed works. It's not physics, man. It's open season in any liberal arts course and in life, to say whatever you like, openly and freely. You appear to me to have such a limited and narrow view of academic discourse that you only say something which is backed by a peer reviewed work.

The problem with that is that up until recently, all discourse in liberal arts fields has been dominated by religious thinkers, even in areas outside religion. I don't know if you noticed this.

What are you thinking? That we as atheists should restrict ourselves in the way we look at the world and at religions because the planet has been gripped by religious thinking even up to the present time?

What you have done is to limit what you can post here to short, as you say, "terse", comments. I can't find any posts of yours where you actually express anything interesting. Ok, yees, Chas, we get the point that we don't need book about religion to know what is right or wrong. It's good you figured that one out. You trot it out often enough. Beyond that.... ??? Anything to add? Got anything interesting to discuss?

Hey, at least I get a reaction. I know you don't understand word one of what I am saying but it would be nice to see something of substance from you other than your "trolling" and flaming of me.

No, you don't get it. If you want ro propose something don't state it as though it is a fact.
If you are making a claim, support it.

If not, make it clear that you are not.

You are simply not at all good at this. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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