New Testament History revisited
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24-10-2016, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-10-2016 07:56 PM by Chas.)
RE: New Testament History revisited
(23-10-2016 11:53 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 10:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Still no citations. Back to my porn screenDrinking Beverage

You go buddy.

Go fuck yourself, you dishonest little prick.

Only a dishonest, malignant, insecure troll intentionally misquotes like that.

It should be a bannable offense; it is certainly ban-worthy.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-10-2016, 04:21 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(24-10-2016 01:50 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Okay, I get it.

When you have studied more on the subject you will see many belief systems found their way into xianity. What Epicurus, an atheist, said, played a rather small role. Stoicism, for example, had more of an influence IMHO.

I will gladly help you Delta. My love of this history is extremely deep. Perhaps an interesting starting point for you would to read a text by a later Flavian Emperor. Julian, nephew of Constantius.

Although this text was written hundreds of years after the fall of the republic, Julian was a scholar in both xianity and the pagan religions. Happily it is now free on the internet and you can read what remains of it HERE.

As I said, if you really have an interest you can PM me and I will happily guide you through various important texts.

I am at your service.

Cheers. Dale

Thanks.. That's very kind of you. I'll follow the link.

The Epicurean angle is just something that came to mind because of a few things I had read. My attitude towards xtianity has changed because I new see it as a contrived religion with a Hellenistic slant but I hadn't ever thought about the moral argument and whence it came. I read some pieces on the internet which suggested that Epicureanism had eclipsed Stoicism in the late Republic and I wondered what it was like for people living under the Claudians and also fighting against "Judaism" as it presented itself at the time.

Cheers

DB
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25-10-2016, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2016 06:51 AM by Banjo.)
RE: New Testament History revisited
(25-10-2016 04:21 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Thanks.. That's very kind of you. I'll follow the link.

The Epicurean angle is just something that came to mind because of a few things I had read. My attitude towards xtianity has changed because I new see it as a contrived religion with a Hellenistic slant but I hadn't ever thought about the moral argument and whence it came. I read some pieces on the internet which suggested that Epicureanism had eclipsed Stoicism in the late Republic and I wondered what it was like for people living under the Claudians and also fighting against "Judaism" as it presented itself at the time.

Cheers

DB

Hi mate.
I am currently very tired and extremely heavily medicated, so I will keep this short and basic.

It is highly doubtful that any member of the Julio Claudian family had heard anything about a tiny sect within the lower classes of the empire. There is no archeology to support it. We are speaking about 0.3 % of the total population during that period.

Later it came to light during the reign of Trajan and there is a very famous letter banter between he and Pliny about how to deal with them because they would not bow to the image of the emperor. Pliny, who was procreator of Bithynia at that time would offer three chances to them to do so. If they did not, he would send them to be executed on charges of treason. All religion was free. Disrespect of the emperor was not.

Of course only the most fanatical would not quietly bow, then ask their lord forgiveness on the way home.

Persecution later became serious under Diocletian due to his belief it was weakening the empire.

I better gp on tomorrow. I just fell forward and hit my head on the table.

I highly recommend the letters of Seneca, a mad stoicist. Also an incredible hypocrite.

If you have any further questions just leave them for me and I will do my best. I am in hospital over the next 2 days but will answer when I can.

Cheers. Dale

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25-10-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
At 30 I became infatuated (no homo) with Lucius Sulla; and in reading everything I could find about the dude (and consequently everything I could find about the end of the Roman republic) I noticed a particular lack of a certain dude "everybody" told me "was the most important man in history." Consider

So that's where I'm at with that; with this, where I'm at is why do you care, and more importantly, why do you care here? Blink

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25-10-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
I'm curios to know y u thought it was a trick because of the crucifixion because it is known that at the time, the romans commonly executed their condemned by crucifixion n u should know that the Jews at the time didn't use surnames but go by ' the son of this or the son of that. i was hoping to see real concrete evidence for a text which has dates, names of kings n popular people n places of which many were around at the time it began to circulate
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25-10-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(25-10-2016 06:47 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(25-10-2016 04:21 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Thanks.. That's very kind of you. I'll follow the link.

The Epicurean angle is just something that came to mind because of a few things I had read. My attitude towards xtianity has changed because I new see it as a contrived religion with a Hellenistic slant but I hadn't ever thought about the moral argument and whence it came. I read some pieces on the internet which suggested that Epicureanism had eclipsed Stoicism in the late Republic and I wondered what it was like for people living under the Claudians and also fighting against "Judaism" as it presented itself at the time.

Cheers

DB

Hi mate.
I am currently very tired and extremely heavily medicated, so I will keep this short and basic.

It is highly doubtful that any member of the Julio Claudian family had heard anything about a tiny sect within the lower classes of the empire. There is no archeology to support it. We are speaking about 0.3 % of the total population during that period.

Later it came to light during the reign of Trajan and there is a very famous letter banter between he and Pliny about how to deal with them because they would not bow to the image of the emperor. Pliny, who was procreator of Bithynia at that time would offer three chances to them to do so. If they did not, he would send them to be executed on charges of treason. All religion was free. Disrespect of the emperor was not.

Of course only the most fanatical would not quietly bow, then ask their lord forgiveness on the way home.

Persecution later became serious under Diocletian due to his belief it was weakening the empire.

I better gp on tomorrow. I just fell forward and hit my head on the table.

I highly recommend the letters of Seneca, a mad stoicist. Also an incredible hypocrite.

If you have any further questions just leave them for me and I will do my best. I am in hospital over the next 2 days but will answer when I can.

Cheers. Dale


Hi

Take care. I don't want to cause you any anxiety by posting "stuff". I've read part of the paper you linked to. It mentions people having always worshipped the heavens, the sun, moon... He then goes on to talk about the visible and invisible god as though there is the sun and the sun-god. I suppose at some point people moved away from thinking that the celestial bodies were the gods but at some point I suppose they thought they were, if you get my point.

I read somewhere a while ago that Stoicism died a death in Rome as Epicureanism gained in precedence. I suppose that is why Epicureanism came to mind. I think Epicureanism has blended into "modernism" so we don't even realize that we are Epicureans ourselves and don't see it as a separate and distinct philosophy when we look at the NT. I dunno. It's too complex, in truth to ever reconstruct.

Best wishes and good luck.
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25-10-2016, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2016 10:50 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: New Testament History revisited
(25-10-2016 06:59 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  At 30 I became infatuated (no homo) with Lucius Sulla; and in reading everything I could find about the dude (and consequently everything I could find about the end of the Roman republic) I noticed a particular lack of a certain dude "everybody" told me "was the most important man in history." Consider

So that's where I'm at with that; with this, where I'm at is why do you care, and more importantly, why do you care here? Blink

If you are meaning me...

Here?... It's as good a place as any. I was looking after my wife who was and is very unwell from brain damage from an embolism. Between my job, my son and caring for her I started going to forums. It became problematic if I discussed her problems so I decided to go to some forums where I could discuss things that interested me. The first was a Shakespeare forum. I thought it would be fun but after a while I realized that the forum had been taken over by a handful of people who had their own ideas about it. I found it challenging becuase I would do a lot of research, come up with ideas, post them and then I would be heavily criticized etc. but in the course of it I learned a huge amount. I eventually wrote a short paper and sent it off to a PhD candidate who has a web site and is quite well known in the UK and the paper did the rounds with the result that I was invited to a Shakespeare conference in London by Mark Rylance who had been the director of the Globe Theatre. To my regret I couldn't go because of my wife's illness.

We then decided to move here because I had to give up work when my wife fell and broke her leg very badly and was confined to a wheel chair for six months. That really finished me off career wise in the UK at my age and I was knackered. We sold up everything and came here because we have family here.

Because of the isolation that caring for someone who is largely bed bound causes, I needed an outlet so I figured I would join some forums to do with atheism so I joined the Richard Dawkins Foundation and Sam Harris' site but I found them not to be that interesting. I came across Atwill on the Dawkins site and Ellis on the other one and read both of them just out of interest, really. I had no idea that talking about these ideas would rub so many people the wrong way and provoke what I consider to be a ridiculously hysterical reaction.

I suppose the reason I became more involved in this is that by being here in the Near East, you see the world from a different angle and I realized I had no idea of what the Near East was all about, either now or in biblical times. I kept coming across iconography and traditions here which just don't fit with anything I had experience of.

I understand why people call me a "dot joiner". Speaking from my own experience and of what I see in other who live here is that they start looking around and seeing things. I had never heard of Sanliurfa. I had no idea the Turks venerated the Nazar. I hadn't thought much about Josephus or his view of where the Jews came from.

Here's an example. If you drive through Turkey as we did, to get here, we met people called Izzy. Of course this is the name of Jesus and then you hear that in Turkey and Islamic counties this name is reserved for men with red hair. ??? We in the west tend to want to laugh at depictions of Jesus with red hair and try to recast him as dark with black hair. I then started to realize that it wasn't outlandish at all, here, to talk about Europeans having come from here, or about religious divides, because they are all still present. Muslim society seems not to have changed much in terms of its belief structure since Mohammed. Culture has changed but the religion remains unreformed.

I then looked up one night and saw this massive star configuration looming above the mountains behind my house and I had never seen it before. It was Christmas and it dominated the sky so I got interested in star signs and realized it was Orion. The skies are incredibly clear here so there is a really impressive show at night. It occurred to me that this must have impressed the ancients so I just started to look into it and got myself into this Horus debate. I even got in touch with Achyra S who promotes the Christ in Egypt theory. I am not a mythicist or a Christian. I just think that the religion which came out of Egypt was that of the Pharoahs, ie., the cult of Horus because all the motifs in Christianity relating to the religion of the people he was preaching to have overtones of that cult.

I think this gets on people's nerves because 1. they can't figure out why I am interested in this, 2. it sounds bonkers and 3. it says something radically unacceptable about who the "Jews" were because it suggests they were Armenian, as Josephus contends.

After coming out here, this ISIS thing kicked off and people have told me there is at least one safe house here so it became very worrying and I suppose I needed a diversion from all the shite in my life. I had thought I would at least find some people who might be interested in my descent into Horus madness or might have found it amusing but it really does annoy people and I just can't understand why. Then, of course, that becomes an issue on these forums because you always feel you are in the middle of a "conversation" and you just want to finish your thought, so you keep coming back.

The Horus thing is inexplicable unless you live here, ie., near Syria. I hadn't seen the stars for decades because I either lived in a big city or in places it was too cloudy to see anything or at the wrong latitude to see the prominence of Orion in the sky at Christmas. What it does, when you see it here, in all its glory, is you think, "Wow, people must have looked up at that and been amazed" It is the largest star configuration in the sky and is incredibly bright at Christmas when it is at it's highest point in the sky, right overhead. I have never lived anywhere this was so noticeable or dominant in the night sky and it is a huge figure of a man and nobody talks about it, but the major "icon" in Turkey is Horus' eye, the Nazar, and his right eye is the sun and he is this star figure, and he is the son of god in the Egyptian trinity.

I also feel that if it were possible to say to Muslims, Christians and Jews, that their invisible god was once visible and that this is who he was, a star sign, it would help argue against these religions. In the course of this, however, I came to realize that if you read Christianity correctly, IMHO, you can see it as a Hellenistic morality wrapped up in a topological story of a man imbued with powers which appear to come out of the cult of Horus and I then came to believe that it was a political work aimed at this cult and it's followers who the Romans had come up against.

Maybe I'll get over it. I think I have exhausted what I can do to bring the world to its senses. lol In England they call it a "romp" but it turned into a slow trudge though a swamp of abuse and misunderstanding.
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25-10-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(23-10-2016 01:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  What I don't get, Bucky, is how you can say that Josephus was wrong in his understanding of who the Jews were when he wrote that they came from Armenia and that they left Egypt and established Jerusalem.

How does that work? He's commander of the Jewish forces in Galilee during the Jewish revolt. Are you saying he had heretical views on his own ancestry? Did everyone he spoke to about this think it was...a bit of a stretch?

I think you just talk trash.

So, you do to me as you would have medo unto you.

Here goes: Moron, idiot.

Suck it up little man and get a life.

As we just a leeeetle obsessed here ? LMAO.
Who need to get a life again ?
What a fucking joke.

Horus, in-fucking-deed. Laugh out load

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
(23-10-2016 12:44 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And I worked for Oscar Peterson.

So, despite all the shit, and attempted DIVERSIONARY tactics, STILL not one reference, or historical quote or citation.

Idiot

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: New Testament History revisited
Quote: The point is that when you have a society which has become, at it's heart, secular and rational, and it is overtaken by a man like Julius Caesar who makes himself into a dictator

The senate - representing the patrician class - effectively declared war on Caesar. It is not as if they gave him much choice. No one gave a flying fuck about philosophy in the multiple civil wars which followed.

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