New Testament History revisited

[Deltabravo]

(25-10-2016 11:21 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  

Quote: The point is that when you have a society which has become, at it's heart, secular and rational, and it is overtaken by a man like Julius Caesar who makes himself into a dictator

The senate - representing the patrician class - effectively declared war on Caesar. It is not as if they gave him much choice. No one gave a flying fuck about philosophy in the multiple civil wars which followed.

No? They don't seem to have been happy with the cult of emperor worship. Read Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars for a description of the depravity of the Claudians:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars

Here's some guys rundown of philosophy in the Roman Republic: http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/phil16.htm

[Deltabravo]

(25-10-2016 10:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(23-10-2016 12:44 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And I worked for Oscar Peterson. 1

So, despite all the shit, and attempted DIVERSIONARY tactics, STILL not one reference, or historical quote or citation.

Idiot

1. http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/pete...son_o.html

[unfogged]

(25-10-2016 10:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(23-10-2016 12:44 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And I worked for Oscar Peterson.

So, despite all the shit, and attempted DIVERSIONARY tactics, STILL not one reference, or historical quote or citation.

Idiot

He probably meant Oscar Mayer

[Bucky Ball]

(25-10-2016 12:03 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  

(25-10-2016 10:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, despite all the shit, and attempted DIVERSIONARY tactics, STILL not one reference, or historical quote or citation.

Idiot

1. http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/pete...son_o.html

[Banjo]

(25-10-2016 09:42 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hi

Take care. I don't want to cause you any anxiety by posting "stuff". I've read part of the paper you linked to. It mentions people having always worshipped the heavens, the sun, moon... He then goes on to talk about the visible and invisible god as though there is the sun and the sun-god. I suppose at some point people moved away from thinking that the celestial bodies were the gods but at some point I suppose they thought they were, if you get my point.

I read somewhere a while ago that Stoicism died a death in Rome as Epicureanism gained in precedence. I suppose that is why Epicureanism came to mind. I think Epicureanism has blended into "modernism" so we don't even realize that we are Epicureans ourselves and don't see it as a separate and distinct philosophy when we look at the NT. I dunno. It's too complex, in truth to ever reconstruct.

Best wishes and good luck.

Thanks mate.
I just woke up and have made my first coffee before heading off to hospital. The reason I had trouble yesterday is because the day before I had just received my med's again and my body is in the process of readjusting.

It can be like getting drunk without spending the money to do so.

Julian is pretty much on the money. Mithra was a descendant of Helios the sun god. He'd had 12 apostles, was crucified for similar reasons later given to JC. Mithra, who I may have mentioned earlier, was the god protector of the legions. Therefore his story had access to all corners of the empire. Later, when Constantine made xianity the state religion, the name Mithra was simply switched fr that of Jesus Christ. This was all done under orders of Constantine. A man who had family and friends killed off so often, when later he died, people did not go near his body for a week in case he was faking.

I am going to quickly jump to beliefs within the empire depending on who was emperor at the time.

Were one to speak to Tiberius about Epicurus, one may find oneself being thrown off the cliff at Capris. Tiberius was so superstitious he may have found it uncomfortable for the health of the empire to even whisper this man's name. Tiberius constantly surrounded himself with astrologers and relied upon them for advice.

A similar conversation with the later Gaius, otherwise known as Caligula (Little boots), may have been offensive to him as he saw himself as a god. He also had spies placed throughout the empire reporting private conversations to him. Were he to hear that any form of atheism was spoken about, he would very likely have had that person executed and then stolen their estate.

Under Claudius, a more scholarly emperor, I think these conversation would have been safe. He was more open minded. Although he had a short temper. He had also written a history of Rome. Sadly it did not survive.

At times it may have seemed cool to have intellectual conversation in Greek regarding such a controversial figure as Epicurus. Much the same as it later became "cool" for the aristocracy in Russia to speak about Descartes in French.

A fun topic, but one hardly believed in.

There were ever more dangerous emperors under whom speaking of atheism would have been unsafe, Commodus, Caracalla etc. And in reading the early xians, people such as a Theophilus, it becomes quite obvious that they were fanatical and hardly able to be entertained by an Epicurus.

I have seen it written that Josephus, acting under guidelines set out by Diocletian and his sons, created the NT as a way of controlling the population. What is rarely figured is that family was Flavian. The patrician families were not quick to forget their histories. Indeed they would often have a room dedicated to the death masks of their ancestors. Constantine was also a Flavian, as was Julian. I find it difficult to believe they, especially Julian, would fail to mention this.

Also there is zero evidence.

Needless to say, the age and range of ideas that flowed throughout the empire make it very difficult to find a single idea that overwhelmed everything. Even after xianity was made the state religion, the various sects took it upon themselves to pounce upon each other.

The separation of the west from the east, especially after the invasions of both the Goths and Vandals, saw many pagan ideas slip into what became catholicism. This did not occur in the east to as greater extent.

There was a book written by Porphyry that exposed all the details regarding the influence of Hellenistic ideas taken into xianity. After xianity was established, it was ordered that all copies of this work be hunted down and burned. So dangerous as it was seen to xianity. Sadly what remain are mere fragments.

The result is as what I said earlier, we do not know the exact details. Perhaps one day this work will be found and come to light. It is my hope this happens within my lifetime.

I hope this helps a bit.

Cheers. Dale.

[Minimalist]

Quote:They don't seem to have been happy with the cult of emperor worship.

No? It was the senate that deified the emperors.

Quote:A deceased emperor held worthy of the honor could be voted a state divinity (divus, plural divi) by the Senate and elevated as such in an act of apotheosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_c...ient_Rome)

[houseofcantor]

(25-10-2016 10:45 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  If you are meaning me...

Here?... It's as good a place as any.

But it ain't; not really. I sometimes get fluffy about faith, UFOs, and assorted tin-foil hat stuff, but not so much here. Wrong audience.

And as for Ellis, it ain't an "over-reaction" so much as just a reaction; I mean the cat's been around here (and elsewhere) talking so much out the side of his neck his head's probably horizontal by now.