New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
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13-10-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 09:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 08:41 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  On this subject, OLB, you seem to have similar insight and discussion powers to a creationist.

On others I am often with you.

Let's just see about that.....

I've been around guns my whole life.
I've been shooting guns over 50 years.
I've had military weapons training and civilian weapons training.
I've owned hundreds of pistols rifles and shotguns. I also worked at a gun shop and sold thousands.
I've carried a concealed pistol legally for 15 years, and had interactions with law enforcement while carrying - and I've never had a problem.

Your experience with guns is what?

And I'm the one who's acting like a religious nut acting on faith alone?

Funny how that works......

You are obviously a competent, and very enthusiastic, gun owner of long standing, but that is part of the problem. It is the same mindset as the long term and 100% totally dedicated, emotionally, follower of some sports team.

In a similar way the strongly religious personmay be extremely emotionally involved with their belief.

Taken beyond a certain point it can be that no other team or (non)belief can be accrotable as being equal, certainly not superior.

I have carried loaded weapons in situations were a firefight was entirely possible, and had loaded weapons pointed at me (RAF, Cyprus 1963-5). I was scared but not afraid (there is a subtle fifference) I admit - but I was also fairly well trained and disciplined. I was also quite prepared to kill then and, given a gun and a life threatening situation, would still be.

To my mind, and as I said, we come ftom two very different cultures, there are three basic kinds of gun, specialist sports weapons, hunting/pest control weapons and weapons designed to kill other people.

Almost every culture has the first two, those cultures thst have high numbers of the third are mostly, looking world wide, inherently violent cultures to some degree. Any over average level of violence in a culture, plus the means to kill from a distance, is a volatile mix.

I do not know where America lies on the global "violent ciltures" scale but, ftom the data I posted in the school killing thread, it looks to be fairly high in the "first world" group - though that includes all violence, not just gun violence. Though the latter is also high in the set of first world cultures I would say.

I did get much of my impression from American films and TV series I will admit. I cannot tell how accurate a depiction of the average American life experience those are, but an American friend indicated that the incidents were not way out though the apparent frequency might be so.

So, being brought up in a certain kind of society where guns are as common as carving knives, where training kids into their use is as prevelant as teaching them how to change the oil in the car (or whatever) I can see the loyalty with which such a culture ifs defended.

But, can you not also see that, apart from sports shooting, hunting and pest control (as in the UK), there is no other use for weapons, especially handguns, than defending yourself against others who might try to kill you or you trying to kill them and they defenfing themselves. If neither of you had a gun neither of you would need one.

There are always nutters in any culture, we have knife killers in the UK, but not as many as some cultures. I am bloody glad guns are so highly regulated here and we are not tied to an archaic dream.

The gun tends to shape the person. The people shape the culture. The culture tends to propagate into the future. And there can be feedback, positive - an increase in expected violence - and negative - an increase in measures against such.

Until it explodes and either self-destructs or is obliterated by other cultures that feel threatened. Most historical global powers, Britain, Spain, France, Russia, America etc have had internal problems and destroyed other cultures at some time in their history.

But that "obliteration" can be internal from minority sub-cultures of any ethnic variety and America possibly has more potential problems there than any other country at a similar level of modernity.

Once again , I have no new argument to offer, I am "posted out" fir the moment and have nomintention of going round the loop again.

Ocamm's razor applies, are firearms neccesary for everyday, civilised life? If not why keep them in the equation? Keep them on the range, keep them in the hunting lodges - why keep anti-personell weapons at home. Because others do? But they do so because you do! Or they just want to look and talk macho.

There is nothing manly about owning guns.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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13-10-2016, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2016 03:35 PM by Chas.)
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 02:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 05:28 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You know what's amazing???

For all the anti-gun people's love of running their mouths -- they just can't quite seem to answer one small question -------


How does passing laws that restrict the rights of law abiding citizens control those maniacs who don't obey such laws????????????

“The Lawbreaker’s Paradox is as follows:
  • Law-abiding citizens obey the law
  • Criminals are lawbreakers, and thus do not obey the law
  • Laws impose restrictions on the behavior of only those that follow them
  • Laws, therefore, only hurt law-abiding citizens

Without exception, every law could be refuted with the lawbreaker’s paradox, and societies would swiftly descend into anarchy if it weren’t for reasonable policymakers. Laws against rape, murder, and theft, for example, are rarely followed by rapists, murderers, and thieves, but the fact that such people exist in society is the reason behind such regulations in the first place.

If we were to accept that a law is justified only if it has a 100% compliance rate (this is, necessarily, the logical extension of any position that renounces legal reform under the pretense that ‘criminals don’t obey laws’), then we could systematically dismantle every existing law until nothing remains but the state of nature.”

https://www.armedwithreason.com/rebuttin...n-control/

I'm afraid both you and the author miss the point.

We already have laws regarding who can possess, purchase, transfer, etc. firearms at both the federal and state levels.
Pretty much everything you think there should be a law against, there is a law against.

I suppose the only area of disagreement is that private sales do not require a NICS check. They do, however, rely on both the buyer and seller following the law.

What is being objected to is adding laws and regulations that don't do anything except burden the lawful possession, purchase, transfer, etc. of firearms.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 03:17 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  If neither of you had a gun neither of you would need one.

Wrong. How does a weaker person defend against a stronger assailant, or one armed with something else? Or against multiple assailants?

Quote:Ocamm's razor applies, are firearms neccesary for everyday, civilised life? If not why keep them in the equation? Keep them on the range, keep them in the hunting lodges - why keep anti-personell weapons at home.

See above.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 02:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 09:57 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And always with the insults. Go-to for ardent gunners.

Yes, never anything of substance from you. You really are an asshole.

And once more, the gunners come through. Thumbsup
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13-10-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 03:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 02:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  “The Lawbreaker’s Paradox is as follows:
  • Law-abiding citizens obey the law
  • Criminals are lawbreakers, and thus do not obey the law
  • Laws impose restrictions on the behavior of only those that follow them
  • Laws, therefore, only hurt law-abiding citizens

Without exception, every law could be refuted with the lawbreaker’s paradox, and societies would swiftly descend into anarchy if it weren’t for reasonable policymakers. Laws against rape, murder, and theft, for example, are rarely followed by rapists, murderers, and thieves, but the fact that such people exist in society is the reason behind such regulations in the first place.

If we were to accept that a law is justified only if it has a 100% compliance rate (this is, necessarily, the logical extension of any position that renounces legal reform under the pretense that ‘criminals don’t obey laws’), then we could systematically dismantle every existing law until nothing remains but the state of nature.”

https://www.armedwithreason.com/rebuttin...n-control/

I'm afraid both you and the author miss the point.

We already have laws regarding who can possess, purchase, transfer, etc. firearms at both the federal and state levels.
Pretty much everything you think there should be a law against, there is a law against.

The laws are not comprehensive enough and I’m pretty sure your use of “you” is not meant personally but collectively right Chas?

(13-10-2016 03:28 PM)‘Chas Wrote:  I suppose the only area of disagreement is that private sales do not require a NICS check. They do, however, rely on both the buyer and seller following the law.

What is being objected to is adding laws and regulations that don't do anything except burden the lawful possession, purchase, transfer, etc. of firearms.

That is your opinion, I hold that additional proper and comprehensive laws, while possibly burdening lawful gun owners, are a necessity to curb gun violence.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-10-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 04:04 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm afraid both you and the author miss the point.

We already have laws regarding who can possess, purchase, transfer, etc. firearms at both the federal and state levels.
Pretty much everything you think there should be a law against, there is a law against.

The laws are not comprehensive enough and I’m pretty sure your use of “you” is not meant personally but collectively right Chas?

Well, I meant you personally, but I see those weren't your words, you were quoting.
So, just the author.

Quote:
(13-10-2016 03:28 PM)‘Chas Wrote:  I suppose the only area of disagreement is that private sales do not require a NICS check. They do, however, rely on both the buyer and seller following the law.

What is being objected to is adding laws and regulations that don't do anything except burden the lawful possession, purchase, transfer, etc. of firearms.

That is your opinion, I hold that additional proper and comprehensive laws, while possibly burdening lawful gun owners, are a necessity to curb gun violence.

Well, I urge you to describe them because "additional proper and comprehensive laws" isn't very descriptive.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 03:58 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 02:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, never anything of substance from you. You really are an asshole.

And once more, the gunners come through. Thumbsup

Fuck off, troll. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 04:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:58 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And once more, the gunners come through. Thumbsup

Fuck off, troll. Drinking Beverage

You're the one being rude, and I'm the troll. Interesting. Consider
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13-10-2016, 05:31 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 03:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:17 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  If neither of you had a gun neither of you would need one.

Wrong. How does a weaker person defend against a stronger assailant, or one armed with something else? Or against multiple assailants?
And the flip,

How does a weaker assailant attack a stronger person or against multiple persons?
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13-10-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 05:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. How does a weaker person defend against a stronger assailant, or one armed with something else? Or against multiple assailants?
And the flip,

How does a weaker assailant attack a stronger person or against multiple persons?

Either way you get to have a gunfight. I fail to see the problem Tongue

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