New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
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13-10-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 04:48 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  You're the one being rude, and I'm the troll. Interesting. Consider

No, you little fuckhead, you started in with the information-free, polarizing posts that added nothing to the discussion.

So fuck off, troll.


And this folks, is a representative of the people who want you to trust them in public places with guns. Do you feel safer already?
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13-10-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:35 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. How does a weaker person defend against a stronger assailant, or one armed with something else? Or against multiple assailants?


See above.

Your argument is confirmation that you perceive yourself to be living in an inherently and explicitly violent culture.

I'll never deny that. If I were living in Iceland I probably wouldn't be armed to the teeth. American culture is fucked.

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13-10-2016, 07:45 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 06:47 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  They're embarrassed to state the real reason, that they just want to keep all those cool toys. So they come up with lame after lame after lame, then get mad when it's pointed out how lame it is.

I have valid reasons for owning guns. I'm not the least embarrassed.

What are your valid reasons, Chas?

(I recognise that "valid" is a relative term dependent on culture in this case.)

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13-10-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 06:47 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  They're embarrassed to state the real reason, that they just want to keep all those cool toys. So they come up with lame after lame after lame, then get mad when it's pointed out how lame it is.
Yeah, I think there is some truth in that (regarding some people). We are obviously attempting to use a single brush stroke to paint the motives of all US gun folk, which means we are lumping together the moderates with the guys that think the gun problem is that there aren't enough guns. And some of those moderates with then get on their high horse and get all "offended".

I mean, there are some people who would have a .22 rifle on the farm in order to control rabbits. It wouldn't be a very effective way of pest control but still, they don't pose much threat to the public.

I guess the moderates are probably criticised a lot, I mean the US view of guns, in particular the southern states is very, very different from that of the rest of the civilised peacetime nations.

I think there is a strong level of paranoia that goes on.
What might be considered moderate in US (perhaps carrying a handgun for self protection). Is considered extreme and aggressive in other countries (it is in mine). I mean, if I were to meet someone that carries a knife on them for "protection". I'd give that person a wide berth, what kind of person feels the need to carry around knives? Why do they expect to get into a physical altercation? Carrying around a gun, is even worse that carrying around a knife.

The idea that concealment makes it OK, to me is a bit bizarre.
If you were to see some guy walking down a populated public street carrying a sword or machete or gun, you'd be scared right?
Why would you be scared? Is it because you assume this guy is nuts and is going to start killing people, or is it because you see the potential danger?
Obviously if you saw the sword or machete or gun lieing unattended on the ground you are going to be less scared. But you'd probably take it upon yourself to pick them up and remove them in case someone else see's opportunity. So the meme of "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is just an outright silly meme. Noone is scared of the gun unless it is being carried by someone.

But anyway, back to the topic of concealment. We would get worried to see a person wondering down the street with a weapon, because of the potential for danger. We don't get upset that they are open carrying. Our reaction isn't, "Oh my god, quick put that weapon away" and then they put the gun or knife into some holster and then immediately our fears disappear. We remain worried, the potential danger is still there. So the deal with concealment is that we just don't realise that someone is walking around with a weapon (potentially loaded). Isn't ignorance blissful? But this doesn't actually address the potential danger, it just hides it.

Guns that are easy to conceal are great for committing crime.

The argument goes that if you outlaw these guns then only outlaws will have them. This assumes that outlawing these guns will have no effect on the supply of guns to the country or community (stolen, and lost guns become desirable guns for outlaws). Perhaps for USA that is the case, but in that case it would make sense for the gun folk to include that in their argument (often they assume gun arguments are in the context of USA). They also assume that all gun crimes are premeditated and that the crime will have got the gun anyway. This doesn't take into account the amount of women (wife's and partners) killed by angry or jealous male partners.

It also assumes that there are bad people and good people, that bad people have criminal records and that good people don't. They assume that people passing gun checks are fantastic, upstanding, stable, responsible people and hence all legal gun owners are 100% trustworthy with guns. I've even heard the arguments that gun owners are the most polite people too Rolleyes

I feel, that if these gun folk went to a different country, e.g. Australia, NZ or whatever for a few months, got out of their gun circles, they might start to lose some of that paranoia about not having a gun on them. They might realise that the world, although not 100% safe, isn't really that scary either.
Of course some caution is always required, be careful of walking alone at night etc.
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13-10-2016, 08:05 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2016 08:14 PM by Gloucester.)
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:39 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 07:35 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Your argument is confirmation that you perceive yourself to be living in an inherently and explicitly violent culture.

I'll never deny that. If I were living in Iceland I probably wouldn't be armed to the teeth. American culture is fucked.

You said it, and it's a feedback situation, the worse it gets the worse it gets.

Mass paranoia, individual and sub-cultural, is the ultimate result.

The problem is it has global implications. You will not be able to maintain a global strongman position if your internal structure is imploding.

PS: you would be safe in 99% of European cities, though many have areas not safe at night - unless you want a fight.

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13-10-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:35 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Your argument is confirmation that you perceive yourself to be living in an inherently and explicitly violent culture.

The data suggests we probably are. In the 80's the Bureau of Justice Statistics conducted a study with the goal of calculating an American's lifetime chances of being a victim of crime.

83 percent of Americans could expect to be victims of an attempted robbery, rape or assault at least once as an adult

40 percent could expect to be injured in a robbery or assault

72 percent of households could expect to be burglarized

20 percent could expect to have a car stolen

99 percent of the population could expect to experience some kind of personal theft

Crime rates in the US have fallen since the data was collected for this study so these numbers are probably higher than they should be, but I doubt if they have fallen that much.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3647

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13-10-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
Here's my valid reasons:

1. The M4 is the primary tool of my trade, but Army training standards are woefully inadequate, especially as a part time National Guardsman. We go to the range a few weekends per year if we're lucky. If I did not train on my own time, using a rifle nearly identical to my service rifle, I do not believe I'd be proficient enough to call myself an expert. For that, I am limited to civilian law regardless of what I use on the job. Those of us who don't practice in our off time pretty much set the standard for the stereotypical useless weekend warrior.

2. Just to piss people like you guys off. Yes, that's a valid reason.

3. Because the range is one of the few places I'm at ease. I didn't ask to be a warrior in a world full of hippies. I was born this way and I don't appreciate being discriminated against.

4. The zombies are coming.

5. The commies are coming.

6. While overall the violent crime rate is continuing to decline, gang activity and general subcultural division is on the rise. I've been in places where the government has collapsed so I know firsthand both how shitty things can get and.how mistaken the people are who like to believe it couldn't happen. Again, if I were in a very different context, such as an isolated location with a relatively homogenous culture like Iceland, I wouldn't be concerned. But I do not trust the ability of the US government to keep things from going to shit.

7. Because shooting rabbits with a high capacity AR is fucking hysterical. Okay, I don't actually do that, nor do I see a reason to, but I prefer options.

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13-10-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:35 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 03:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. How does a weaker person defend against a stronger assailant, or one armed with something else? Or against multiple assailants?


See above.

Your argument is confirmation that you perceive yourself to be living in an inherently and explicitly violent culture.

I do.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2016 08:22 PM by Chas.)
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 07:45 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 07:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have valid reasons for owning guns. I'm not the least embarrassed.

What are your valid reasons, Chas?

(I recognise that "valid" is a relative term dependent on culture in this case.)

Sport shooting, hunting, pest control, self-defense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: New Texas gun control law allows concealed guns on campus
(13-10-2016 08:05 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  You said it, and it's a feedback situation, the worse it gets the worse it gets.

Except it isn't getting worse. Crime rates in the US, including violent crime rates, are going down.

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