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17-05-2015, 06:56 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 06:47 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's not what the Bible says. "No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him" is what Jesus said. If you buy the Bible you MUST accept there are no proofs. Religious faith is not about "proofs". If it were, faith would be unnecessary. So thanks for admitting up front you will never be a religious person. Evolution is proven by DNA. If you don't get that, your grasp of science is very very limited. You clearly DO need some education, as you know nothing about religion or science.

No theologian talks about "facts". If you know of one, give us their name.

I'm not Christian and believe the Bible is tampered. I only believe in a Creator based upon traditional kalam arguments. As I said previously I folliw Ashari creed. Or do you need schooling on theology to know what that is?

So you were dishonest in asking about the Bible. Kalam has been debunked a million times, including here. You have not watched the linked videos, nor have you read any links. I think you're hardly an "objective theist". There is no such thing. Kalam has required assumptions. They are meaningless when examined. Here's a little clue. I know you won't watch it, and obviously if you went to Behe it's WAY over your head, but there's a clue in here why Kalam is bullshit :




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-05-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 06:55 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:49 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  "The similarity is that both of you follow a body of authority. Majority of people cannot verify these facts but must conform to the scientific clergy."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!!!

Hypocrisy much?

Not really. I believe that science and belief in a creator go hand in hand. I do not see a contradiction. Atheism does not have a monopoly if science. Science and medicine like language are shared entities for all humanity. Religious and non religious people can contribute to it.

Where does scientific clergy come in to it?

Your background is not science, I'm willing to bet.
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17-05-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 06:55 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:47 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  I'm not Christian and believe the Bible is tampered. I only believe in a Creator based upon traditional kalam arguments. As I said previously I folliw Ashari creed. Or do you need schooling on theology to know what that is?

Thanks, asshole. Most of us here (I'm guessing) were brought in one branch of christianity or another. Many people here can quote the bible better than most christians.

No, we don't need schooling.

But run your arguments past us. I'm sure none of us have ever heard them before.

No need to get frustrated and label me an asshole. I was only reflecting your earlier attitude where you said I'm ignorant of both science and religion. I will run past my arguments later but most of them are on the lines of the traditional kalam arguments.
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17-05-2015, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 07:04 PM by jockmcdock.)
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 06:58 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:55 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  Thanks, asshole. Most of us here (I'm guessing) were brought in one branch of christianity or another. Many people here can quote the bible better than most christians.

No, we don't need schooling.

But run your arguments past us. I'm sure none of us have ever heard them before.

No need to get frustrated and label me an asshole. I was only reflecting your earlier attitude where you said I'm ignorant of both science and religion. I will run past my arguments later but most of them are on the lines of the traditional kalam arguments.

Cop out.

Your background?
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17-05-2015, 07:14 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 07:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: New To Forum
You don't know anything about science or religion. That's been clearly demonstrated. Don't bother with Kalam. It's an argument for a "proximate" (nearest) cause, not an ultimate cause. An omnippotent god could have created a race of robot universe makers, and those robits fit just as well into Kalam as a god. The notion of a god "creating" is meaningless unless space-time is already in place (or Special Plead out). A god who creates has to decide and act. They require time, AND they invalidate that god's infinite nature. An act puts a time-stamp between an infinite past and an infinite future. Your god is "infinite" right ? A god that exists is embedded of necessity in Reality. It doesn't *not* exist. A god that MUST participate by necessity for it's very existence in Reality, cannot be the creator of Reality. Reality is therefore LARGER than any god. Where did Reality come from ? ..... all gods that "exist" are meaningless. Does your god "exist" ? Rolleyes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-05-2015, 07:17 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 06:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:47 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  I'm not Christian and believe the Bible is tampered. I only believe in a Creator based upon traditional kalam arguments. As I said previously I folliw Ashari creed. Or do you need schooling on theology to know what that is?

So you were dishonest in asking about the Bible. Kalam has been debunked a million times, including here. You have not watched the linked videos, nor have you read any links. I think you're hardly an "objective theist". There is no such thing. Kalam has required assumptions. They are meaningless when examined. Here's a little clue. I know you won't watch it, and obviously if you went to Behe it's WAY over your head, but there's a clue in here why Kalam is bullshit :




I didn't ask about the Bible. I mentioned it as an example.

Secondly, William Lane has taken the name 'kalam' from the traditional Ashari kalam. I will listen to the entire recording during the week and get back to you.
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17-05-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 07:17 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 06:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you were dishonest in asking about the Bible. Kalam has been debunked a million times, including here. You have not watched the linked videos, nor have you read any links. I think you're hardly an "objective theist". There is no such thing. Kalam has required assumptions. They are meaningless when examined. Here's a little clue. I know you won't watch it, and obviously if you went to Behe it's WAY over your head, but there's a clue in here why Kalam is bullshit :




I didn't ask about the Bible. I mentioned it as an example.

Secondly, William Lane has taken the name 'kalam' from the traditional Ashari kalam. I will listen to the entire recording during the week and get back to you.

You did not. You posed it as THE ONLY alternative to Evolution.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...or-Dummies

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-05-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 07:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You don't know anything about science or religion. That's been clearly demonstrated. Don't bother with Kalam. It's an argument for a "proximate" (nearest) cause, not an ultimate cause. An omnippotent god could have created a race of robot universe makers, and those robits fit just as well into Kalam as a god. The notion of a god "creating" is meaningless unless space-time is already in place (or Special Plead out). A god who creates has to decide and act. They require time, AND they invalidate that god's infinite nature. An act puts a time-stamp between an infinite past and an infinite future. Your god is "infinite" right ? A god that exists is embedded of necessity in Reality. It doesn't *not* exist. A god that MUST participate by necessity for it's very existence in Reality, cannot be the creator of Reality. Reality is therefore LARGER than any god. Where did Reality come from ? ..... all gods that "exist" are meaningless. Des your god "exist" ? Rolleyes

Augustine and Aquinas stuff...

I believe in a creator who is Eternal yet interacts with the universe with Attributes. Different to Christian theology.
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17-05-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: New To Forum
(17-05-2015 07:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 07:17 PM)objectivetheist Wrote:  I didn't ask about the Bible. I mentioned it as an example.

Secondly, William Lane has taken the name 'kalam' from the traditional Ashari kalam. I will listen to the entire recording during the week and get back to you.

You did not. You posed it as THE ONLY alternative to Evolution.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...or-Dummies

Theoretically. Not that I see it as an alternative. Others do.
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17-05-2015, 07:26 PM
RE: New To Forum
My original question remains: is verification of scientific 'facts' based upon a blind allegiance to authority? Not every lay man can verify science so his rejection of faith based on evolution is in fact akin to faiths that believe blind following a clergy.
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