New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
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19-06-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
I doubt this astrophysicist could tell the difference between Uranus or a hole in the ground.

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19-06-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
This isn't a new discovery. Science knows that nothing comes from nothing and that we cannot know what happened before the big bang. However, putting a deity there instead of trying to come up with a real answer is lazy.

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19-06-2012, 05:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2012 09:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
(19-06-2012 11:45 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  Again, here is the "God of the gaps" argument. He states that since science cannot right now give all the answers then there must be a God, no doubt.


Am really disappointed. I thought, having in passing seeing him sitting on EWTN, that he might have something to say. He doesn't. He is not a scientist. He's not a Physicist. He doesn't know what scientists do all day.

“What can we conclude of this? First that the Creator is really smart... and second that it must be a loving one, because He could choose so many more violent and chaotic alternatives, that it really has to make you wonder.”

Pardon me ? His creator had to choose among alternatives ? Who the hell made the alternatives ? That is THE most pathetic argument for a (non) loving god anyone could ever possibly imagine. I know he was kidding, (he was kidding..right ?)

It's not even original. It's still Thomistic, (Atistotelian), First Cause, bullshit. Since this idiot is often on EWTN, and seems to be about the best they can come up with, how about a kid from Cali givin' this fool a whack.

Father Robert J. Spitzer PhD, you are a liar.

or

"BTW, what is that 'Craig snort' all about ? (why don't they go to the Otolarygnologist and and get their academic airways/deviated septums fixed?")

Show me the poll, where :

a. there is a total number of astrophysicists counted, and where you got the numbers,

b. they are credentialed, (and by whom, and with what criteria), (which BTW would leave him out),

c. then they are polled, (and let's see the poll, and see the poll objectively tallied).

He's lying through his teeth.

It IS "god of the gaps". It doesn't lead to their god, (Yahweh), which he doesn't even attempt. Not only is it just a rehash, and Spitzer has no clue what scientists actually do all day, (even while affirming their authority while constantly appealing to them from his paranoid position of inferiority), ("agnosticism is freightening"...well yeah, to priestly pay checks), he now, not only appeals to "time", (a cause happening "before" time existed), (meaningless statement), he appeals to space, ("outside"), spacetime, another lingisticlly meaningless set of words, which he would recognize, if he ever actually studied any real Physics, (or Linguistics).

First in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U , he asserts his credentials, (which are absent), which are that "he wrote some books", and has a "center", ((the Magis Center ... yeah we get it..the allusion to the "Magisterium", (in the Roman Catholic Church, and that somehow he, a non bishop, has appropriated to himself a part of that authority)),..(sorry I want my money back), and a You-Tube site. As posted above, he is not a scientist, and certainly has no training in Physics or Cosmology. Then after whining about the "cultural agenda", ("as if" he didn't have one himself), he procedes to posit that there is something "wonderful", and "really smart",outside (this) "the universe", and that he can present evidence for what exists "outside" this universe. His evidence is the same ole same ole Metaphysics, "nothing comes from nothing". Zzzzzzzzz.

Spitzer's delusional paradigm rests on two pillars. 1. The universe is intuitive, (it is not, but he doesn't know why..Relativity, Uncerainty, Dirac), and that 2. metaphysical "nothingness" actually exists, (we know in this universe it does not, and what exists in, if at all, other universes, is at this point unknown).

His entire premise springs from his essential inferiority complex which gets "activated" when he hears Physics use the phrase "A Theory of Everything". Since he is not a scientist, or Physicist, he doesn't know what "unification" is, or it's history, or what Physicists attempt to unify, or what they mean when they use those English words. (As I said, he is not a Linguist). Since he is a religionist, his religion gets aroused when he hears words like that, and since he is also a priest, cannot but help himself to attempt to say something...anything..."religiousy", but has to do it in a "sciency" way, cuz he knows no one listens to the religious crap anymore. Besides the inferiority problem, apparently he has a anal retention problem, as he NEEDS today, right now, the complete 100 % answer to everything, for all time. (Maybe they have a pill for that, maybe he can just go take a shit).

(pssst ..... Bobby Boy, unlike you, we all don't NEED to tell ourselves we "know everything about everything, right now, today". As a "priest", you have placed yourself in the long historical line of those men, (only), who are occupationally obligated to appear to possess THE essential elements of THE truth, "the secret knowledge" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism ).

1. Spitzer lies at 4:00 in his video, when he asserts that Hawking claims in "The Grand Design", that he has a "Theory of Everything". In fact, on page 7, Hawking says he "may have a candidate". Hawking then goes on to explain that if M-Theory is going to work, it is not a theory in the usual sense, but will work in certain ranges of certain observations.

2. Spitzer lies at 4:40 when he asserts that anything outside this universe would always, by definition, be outside the scope of Science. Krauss has proposed a method that, if there were other universes, that might be possible, and that if something exists outside this universe, if it could be observed or detected, under certain circumstances, and if that were NOT his god, he is in trouble, already.

3. Spitzer lies at 5:52 when he states that Science can only operate from data "in the world". The reason is obvious, why, if there were other universes, the data would not be "external".

4. Then he goes on to the same ole Irreducible Complexity, and Anthropic Principle arguments..which are not even worth a second of further time.

5. Spitzer, hun, if your god exists "outside" a universe, and "acts" (out there), you already got spacetime (out) there. Oops.

Also please explain exactly why Infinite Regression is not possible, in a non-intuitive universe.

6. He does admit there is a small probability is isn't his god, (don't let Popey hear that).

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19-06-2012, 06:25 PM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of astrophysicists thought that there was probably a cause for the universe. I'd be a little surprised if that many thought the cause was a deistic god, and quite surprised if that many thought it was a theistic god.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-06-2012, 09:13 PM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
(19-06-2012 05:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-06-2012 11:45 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  Again, here is the "God of the gaps" argument. He states that since science cannot right now give all the answers then there must be a God, no doubt.




Am really disappointed. I thought, having in passing seeing him sitting on EWTN, that he might have something to say. He doesn't. He is not a scientist. He's not a Physicist. He doesn't know what scientists do all day.



“What can we conclude of this? First that the Creator is really smart... and second that it must be a loving one, because He could choose so many more violent and chaotic alternatives, that it really has to make you wonder.”



Pardon me ? His creator had to choose among alternatives ? Who the hell made the alternatives ? That is THE most pathetic argument for a (non) loving god anyone could ever possibly imagine. I know he was kidding, (he was kidding..right ?)



It's not even original. It's still Thomistic, (Atistotelian), First Cause, bullshit. Since this idiot is often on EWTN, and seems to be about the best they can come up with, how about a kid from Cali givin' this fool a whack.



Father Robert J. Spitzer PhD, you are a liar.



or



"BTW, what is that 'Craig snort' all about ? (why don't they go to the Otolarygnologist and and get their academic airways/deviated septums fixed?")



Show me the poll, where :



a. there is a total number of astrophysicists counted, and where you got the numbers,



b. they are credentialed, (and by whom, and with what criteria), (which BTW would leave him out),



c. then they are polled, (and let's see the poll, and see the poll objectively tallied).



He's lying through his teeth.



It IS "god of the gaps". It doesn't lead to their god, (Yahweh), which he doesn't even attempt. Not only is it just a rehash, and Spitzer has no clue what scientists actually do all day, (even while affirming their authority while constantly appealing to them from his paranoid position of inferiority), ("agnosticism is freightening"...well yeah, to priestly pay checks), he now, not only appeals to "time", (a cause happening "before" time existed), (meaningless statement), he appeals to space, ("outside"), spacetime, another lingisticlly meaningless set of words, which he would recognize, if he ever actually studied any real Physics, (or Linguistics).



First in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U , he asserts his credentials, (which are absent), which are that "he wrote some books", and has a "center", ((the Magis Center ... yeah we get it..the allusion to the "Magisterium", (in the Roman Catholic Church, and that somehow he, a non bishop, has appropriated to himself a part of that authority)),..(sorry I want my money back), and a You-Tube site. As posted above, he is not a scientist, and certainly has no training in Physics or Cosmology. Then after whining about the "cultural agenda", ("as if" he didn't have one himself), he procedes to posit that there is something "wonderful", and "really smart",outside (this) "the universe", and that he can present evidence for what exists "outside" this universe. His evidence is the same ole same ole Metaphysics, "nothing comes from nothing". Zzzzzzzzz.



Spitzer's delusional paradigm rests on two pillars. 1. The universe is intuitive, (it is not, but he doesn't know why..Relativity, Uncerainty, Dirac), and that 2. metaphysical "nothingness" actually exists, (we know in this universe it does not, and what exists in, if at all, other universes, is at this point unknown.



His entire premise springs from his essential inferiority complex which gets "activated" when he hears Physics use the phrase "A Theory of Everything". Since he is not a scientist, or Physicist, he doesn't know what "unification" is, or it's history, or what Physicists attempt to unify, or what they mean when they use those English words. (As I said, he is not a Linguist). Since he is a religionist, his religion gets aroused when he hears words like that, and since he is also a priest, cannot but help himself to attempt to say something...anything..."religiousy", but has to do it in a "sciency" way, cuz he knows no one listens to the religious crap anymore. Besides the inferiority problem, apparently he has a anal retention problem, as he NEEDS today, right now, the complete 100 % answer to everything, for all time. (Maybe they have a pill for that, maybe he can just go take a shit).



(pssst ..... Bobby Boy, unlike you, we all don't NEED to tell ourselves we "know everything about everything, right now, today". As a "priest", you have placed yourself in the long historical line of those men, (only), who are occupationally obligated to appear to possess THE essential elements of THE truth, "the secret knowledge" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism ).



1. Spitzer lies at 4:00 in his video, when he asserts that Hawking claims in "The Grand Design", that he has a "Theory of Everything". In fact, on page 7, Hawking says he "may have a candidate". Hawking then goes on to explain that if M-Theory is going to work, it is not a theory in the usual sense, but will work in certain ranges of certain observations.



2. Spitzer lies at 4:40 when he asserts that anything outside this universe would always, by definition, be outside the scope of Science. Krauss has proposed a method that, if there were other universes, that might be possible, and that if something exists outside this universe, if it could be observed or detected, under certain circumstances, and if that were NOT his god, he is in trouble, already.



3. Spitzer lies at 5:52 when he states that Science can only operate from data "in the world". The reason is obvious, why, if there were other universes, the data would not be "external".



4. Then he goes on to the same ole Irreducible Complexity, and Anthropic Principle arguments..which are not even worth a second of further time.



5. Spitzer, hun, if your god exists "outside" a universe, and "acts" (out there), you already got spacetime (out) there. Oops.



Also please explain exactly why Infinite Regression is not possible, in a non-intuitive universe.



6. He does admit there is a small probability is isn't his god, (don't let Popey hear that).

Yes, Bucky, but how do you really feel? Wink

Excellent rant, I must say.

I just do not understand why creationists and "religiousy" (to use Bucky's word) people try and use science to prove their position, because they do it so badly. Do they really think that that BS is going to fly with people who really do know actual science?
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20-06-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
the religiousy attempt to use science not to convince scientists but rather to convince the non-scientists with words/concepts that appear to make themselves more authoritative.
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20-06-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
(19-06-2012 11:52 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  Here is another fun gem:

“What can we conclude of this? First that the Creator is really smart... and second that it must be a loving one, because He could choose so many more violent and chaotic alternatives, that it really has to make you wonder.”


We should conclude he's a loving god? What about disease, war, pain, death, suffering. And if he's the god of the old testament, then there is a whole new debate...
So God is good because... HEY! It could be worse!! That is marvelous.

50% of Astrophysicists? Really.. I have one response:

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21-06-2012, 03:23 AM
RE: New astrophysical discoveries leave little to no room for Atheism, expert says
"Arvin Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin"


Again with this paper.... it's been shown already that the paper has been misrepresented, and that by invoking it you are committing the god of the gaps fallacy again.

For those unfamiliar with this paper. It's a paper William Lane Craig uses as the basis for his arguments. Christians have developed the need to sound more scientific, and to have something tangible in science linked to their beliefs.

So they point to this paper over and over again.

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