New debater needs help
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19-07-2013, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2013 05:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: New debater needs help
(19-07-2013 12:01 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I would suggest you pick your battles a bit more carefully. Christians generally don't see much conflict in the creation accounts of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, and efforts to spell out those conflicts are dismissed as nitpicking. It makes far more sense to recognize the absurdity of the Genesis 1 account all by itself (how was there light and dark for three days before he sun was created? Why does the Bible say the lesser light was made to rule the night when, in fact, the moon is so often visible in the daytime as well?)

If you're looking for contradictions, by far the best have to concern the resurrection of Jesus. No two scriptural accounts are in agreement about what happened there. Did Jesus carry the cross all the way (John) or did he never lay a hand on it (Matthew, Mark, Luke)? How many times did Peter deny Jesus (that's a great one, and Christians twist themselves into pretzels trying to answer it). When was Jesus born (during the reign of Herod or during the reign of Cyreneus: The Bible says BOTH, but history teaches us, quite reliably, that those two reigns did not intersect in time)?

How did Moses write about his own death in Deuteronomy? Why is there no record of Moses in Egyptian history? Why is there no evidence whatsoever that two million nomads settled in Kadesh-barnea for 40 years? Why did Moses say that the Jews built a city that didn't even exist until hundreds of years AFTER the time the Exodus would have taken place?

These are the issues Christianity cannot answer honestly (although they do try).

Why does Exodus say the god brought them "up and out" of Egypt, when they were still down and over in the Sinai desert ?
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s
Why would Moses say he was the humblest man in the world ?
Why does he say he's on the wrong side of the Jordan River ?
Why does he get the order of some of the surrounding culture's kings wrong ?
Why would he say "another man of his stature ever arose in Israel" ? How could he possibly know that ?
And then it says " he was the humblest man on Earth" Do those sound like the statements of a humble man ?
Why is the language, syntax, and vocabulary, and names of the god distinctly and consistently different in the two traditions ?

Two good books.
Who Wrote the Bible, Dr. Richard Elliott Friedmann
How The Bible Became a Book, http://www.jhsonline.org/reviews/review172.htm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-07-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: New debater needs help
(19-07-2013 12:01 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I would suggest you pick your battles a bit more carefully. Christians generally don't see much conflict in the creation accounts of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, and efforts to spell out those conflicts are dismissed as nitpicking. It makes far more sense to recognize the absurdity of the Genesis 1 account all by itself (how was there light and dark for three days before he sun was created? Why does the Bible say the lesser light was made to rule the night when, in fact, the moon is so often visible in the daytime as well?)

If you're looking for contradictions, by far the best have to concern the resurrection of Jesus. No two scriptural accounts are in agreement about what happened there. Did Jesus carry the cross all the way (John) or did he never lay a hand on it (Matthew, Mark, Luke)? How many times did Peter deny Jesus (that's a great one, and Christians twist themselves into pretzels trying to answer it). When was Jesus born (during the reign of Herod or during the reign of Cyreneus: The Bible says BOTH, but history teaches us, quite reliably, that those two reigns did not intersect in time)?

How did Moses write about his own death in Deuteronomy? Why is there no record of Moses in Egyptian history? Why is there no evidence whatsoever that two million nomads settled in Kadesh-barnea for 40 years? Why did Moses say that the Jews built a city that didn't even exist until hundreds of years AFTER the time the Exodus would have taken place?

These are the issues Christianity cannot answer honestly (although they do try).

Thanks for the help Smile

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-07-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: New debater needs help
I actually LOVE debating with people who are open and willing to listen. I will again post a Flow Chart for RATIONAL debate that I got from another great atheist website. I wish I could remember which one so I could give credit to them. If the person you are debating KNOWS they are right and won't change regardless of what you present, then what's the point. I think it was Dawkins who stated " What rational argument can you present to someone who refuses to listen to logic?"... Maybe it was Sam Harris... Great quote either way.

I use to go to the contradictions in the bible and bring up all the absolutely HORRIBLE stories in the bible but the religious always scream "context" or rationalize their way out of their icky feelings it SHOULD provoke.

Instead, I go with the "For the sake of argument, lets say that the bible has absolutely ZERO contradictions"... it still in NO WAY speaks to the validity of the bible. If I could be shown, without a DOUBT that the bible was 100% accurate and correct, I would become an even MORE fervent hater of the book. I have often stated (semi tongue in cheek), I would rather my children read Penthouse Forum than the bible! Just my $0.02
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19-07-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: New debater needs help
(19-07-2013 03:31 PM)GatorVetJRH Wrote:  I think it was Dawkins who stated " What rational argument can you present to someone who refuses to listen to logic?"... Maybe it was Sam Harris... Great quote either way.

It was Sam Harris. The full(er) quote is: “If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide that proves they should value evidence? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value logic?”
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20-07-2013, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2013 09:33 AM by Shannow.)
RE: New debater needs help
Erxomai Wrote:Master Debaters

Chas Wrote:Master baiters

Who became master fakers....I'll get my coat...

"Christianity is like a diet where you eat lots of chocolate cake all week, and then on Sunday you mentally scold yourself and "try again" only to repeat the cycle." - Buddy Christ
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20-07-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: New debater needs help
(20-07-2013 09:27 AM)Shannow Wrote:  
Erxomai Wrote:Master Debaters

Chas Wrote:Master baiters

Who became master fakers....I'll get my coat...

For your horrible pun, you will be braving the shit storm alone, my friend.
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21-07-2013, 12:18 AM
RE: New debater needs help
I'll second the person who said you should pick your battles more carefully Wink. I agree that debating Genesis 1 & 2 is a bad idea with Christians. They can always retreat to the position that it's not a literal description, but is instead a metaphor, allegory or polemic.

That said, since you're already engaged, you don't simply have to accept his claim that Genesis 1 is a timeline and Genesis 2 is an explanation. Challenge him (or her?) to explain how he knows this. Point out that it's an ad-hoc explanation created to avoid a contradiction. Genesis 2 goes to some lengths to specify when humans are created - 2:5-7 - why not take this as the correct timeline and claim that Genesis 1 is the explanation?
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21-07-2013, 12:25 AM
RE: New debater needs help
There is all sorts of evidence the two Genesis stories came from two separate separate sources.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...lid?page=3

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-07-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: New debater needs help
(21-07-2013 12:18 AM)angalpin Wrote:  I'll second the person who said you should pick your battles more carefully Wink. I agree that debating Genesis 1 & 2 is a bad idea with Christians. They can always retreat to the position that it's not a literal description, but is instead a metaphor, allegory or polemic.

Then you just point out that it was both written to be interpreted literally and was interpreted literally by the masses for over 1000 years.

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21-07-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: New debater needs help
(21-07-2013 02:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(21-07-2013 12:18 AM)angalpin Wrote:  I'll second the person who said you should pick your battles more carefully Wink. I agree that debating Genesis 1 & 2 is a bad idea with Christians. They can always retreat to the position that it's not a literal description, but is instead a metaphor, allegory or polemic.

Then you just point out that it was both written to be interpreted literally and was interpreted literally by the masses for over 1000 years.

That seems like a risky tactic to me. I don't think we can prove either way if the authors intended the text to be considered strictly historical or not.

As for what the masses believe, I suspect this won't carry any weight with a Christian apologist. They're not part of the masses - they're far to erudite to take such a simplistic view of the Bible Big Grin Confused. More seriously, the Christian apologist can point out that there have always been different views of Genesis 1 & 2 in both Jewish and Christian culture. It's not clear that the 'literal/historical' interpretation is the correct one to use.
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