New greek finance minister.
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01-02-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 12:54 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 10:02 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  It's just how loans work. You get 1000, you give back 10.000. And it's never enough.

Really???

I'll go for that loan.....



(sure it's cruel to take advantage of typographical errors, but hey -- fun is, where you find it...) Smile


Nope that not a typo it's European style 10.000 is the same as 10,000.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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01-02-2015, 01:06 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 01:04 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 12:54 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Really???

I'll go for that loan.....



(sure it's cruel to take advantage of typographical errors, but hey -- fun is, where you find it...) Smile


Nope that not a typo it's European style 10.000 is the same as 10,000.

Odd that..... Always thought a decimal point was a decimal point....

learn something new all the time...

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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01-02-2015, 01:07 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
I just spent ages writing a response to this on my tablet but it froze.

I think the disease of insolvency that yanis is talking about is systemic throughout the world.

You can watch many conspiracy videos that state that banks create money from thin air through the issuing of debt. Ask an average person on the street where a bank gets its money that it lends out and im sure the vast majority may think that the money comes from other peoples deposits. Those who are a bit more knowledgeable will be aware that these loans go down as liabilities on a banks balance sheet.

Whilst i appreciate that if the 'too big to fails' were allowed to fail, that the consequences would be catastrophic and many people would face losing their money (although technically any money you deposit with a bank stops being yours and becomes theirs, they are only obligated to pay it you back) however I think that the bailouts that happened, in certain ways was a way to simply create money from nothing for the banks. Im not saying they got away scot free, however i think they have faired better than all of the people who lost their homes, their businesses, their savings and investments from all of the fallout of the last six years.

Money is GOD version 2.0

Many people simply have no idea how modern money mechanics operate. Im not saying i am any expert, i simply watch and read about this topic, so this lack of knowledge is replaced by the vast majority of you and me with something else..... Faith.

Faith that the numbers in an electronical account, pieces of paper and coins are actually worth something and that the unseen behind the curtains are playing by the rules.

New money can only be created through debt, to increase your money supply you need debt and a growing money supply is a sign of economic health....wrap your head around that.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
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01-02-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 01:07 PM)bemore Wrote:  New money can only be created through debt, to increase your money supply you need debt and a growing money supply is a sign of economic health....wrap your head around that.

I don't think I agree with that. If I go discover gold or diamonds or oil in my back yard, then wealth will have been created without debt.
So, do you mean that wealth is not money, or something more specific like a government can't print new money except through debt? Even then, I would disagree.
The government gets new debt-free money by taxing my new debt-free wealth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2015, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 03:13 PM by bemore.)
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 01:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 01:07 PM)bemore Wrote:  New money can only be created through debt, to increase your money supply you need debt and a growing money supply is a sign of economic health....wrap your head around that.

I don't think I agree with that. If I go discover gold or diamonds or oil in my back yard, then wealth will have been created without debt.
So, do you mean that wealth is not money, or something more specific like a government can't print new money except through debt? Even then, I would disagree.
The government gets new debt-free money by taxing my new debt-free wealth.

Your block of gold has a value but it is exchanged through the pre-existing money that is already in supply.That is for it to realise its monetary value it must be exchanged for a equivalent denomination. Your block of gold could be worth thousands but untill you have those digits in an account or the money in your hand, that block of gold is only of the value you give it. Gold, oil, labour..... They do not create money anywhere in any accounting way. Im sure if you had a gold mine you could have loads of gold, it all has a value as an asset and im sure you could lend some money against it, using that gold as collateral but that, as far as i am aware, is the only way money could be created.

With regards to governments buying their own debt, of course they can create as many digits as they want but it is not sustainable and is not the way of what a healthy economy would be percieved as being. It is a measure to be used under certain extreme circumstances. It is not 'the system', more of a tool used within the system.

Taxation recycles the money in supply, taxation creates no new money (as far as im aware)

Im thinking i may be missing something. Im sure there are financial instruments that create wealth without debt or relying on some sort of collateral to back it up. They however do not make up the vast majority of new money that is created through private banks through the form of loans or mortgages and other debt instruments.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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01-02-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
I cant post links but if you google 'modern money mechanics in the modern economy' you can read a 14 page pdf put out by the Bank Of England that back up my speculative claims.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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01-02-2015, 03:41 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 02:51 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 01:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think I agree with that. If I go discover gold or diamonds or oil in my back yard, then wealth will have been created without debt.
So, do you mean that wealth is not money, or something more specific like a government can't print new money except through debt? Even then, I would disagree.
The government gets new debt-free money by taxing my new debt-free wealth.

Your block of gold has a value but it is exchanged through the pre-existing money that is already in supply.That is for it to realise its monetary value it must be exchanged for a equivalent denomination. Your block of gold could be worth thousands but untill you have those digits in an account or the money in your hand, that block of gold is only of the value you give it. Gold, oil, labour..... They do not create money anywhere in any accounting way. Im sure if you had a gold mine you could have loads of gold, it all has a value as an asset and im sure you could lend some money against it, using that gold as collateral but that, as far as i am aware, is the only way money could be created.

With regards to governments buying their own debt, of course they can create as many digits as they want but it is not sustainable and is not the way of what a healthy economy would be percieved as being. It is a measure to be used under certain extreme circumstances. It is not 'the system', more of a tool used within the system.

Taxation recycles the money in supply, taxation creates no new money (as far as im aware)

Money is an abstraction in all modern systems. Once upon a time it represented actual physical lumps of shit, but that's a hopelessly obsolete paradigm...

Money in and of itself arises only through debt in a technical sense, to be sure. If I want more money I have to engage in some transaction with someone else that profits me, but fundamentally all money arises from agreements and thus from extension of debt/credit - which is why we call it "fiat", because it's a social construct we collectively decide to uphold.

But that's not necessarily a useful way to think about it. The ideal of "money" is to function as an abstraction of perceived value, thus mediating exchanges of goods and services. The complications inherent in the word "perceived" as interpreted by different people being another matter entirely!

(01-02-2015 02:51 PM)bemore Wrote:  Im thinking i may be missing something. Im sure there are financial instruments that create wealth without debt or relying on some sort of collateral to back it up. They however do not make up the vast majority of new money that is created through private banks through the form of loans or mortgages and other debt instruments.

This being a perfect case in point of illustrating how differences in perceived value lead to some problems if perceptions diverge too far...

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01-02-2015, 04:46 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
Quote: banks create money from thin air through the issuing of debt.

OMG, not this shit again. Are we really gonna go there again?

Quote:Ask an average person on the street where a bank gets its money that it lends out and im sure the vast majority may think that the money comes from other peoples deposits. Those who are a bit more knowledgeable will be aware that these loans go down as liabilities on a banks balance sheet.

Yip, looks like we're going there.

Quote:Taxation recycles the money in supply, taxation creates no new money (as far as im aware)

Im thinking i may be missing something. Im sure there are financial instruments that create wealth without debt or relying on some sort of collateral to back it up. They however do not make up the vast majority of new money that is created through private banks through the form of loans or mortgages and other debt instruments.

Banks giving out loans and mortgages is recycling money just as tax is.
Banks don't create money, they offer a service and they charge you for that service.

It's the exact same principle as coke cola. They produce a product for X amount of dollars and they charge you X+Y amount of dollars. That Y value is just a made up number by Coke (taking into account many factors) so that they make a profit.

With the bank, they lend you N amount of dollars and charge you X+Y interest rate.
X being their costs, Y being their profit.


The idea that banks create money out of thin air is not more true than any other business creating money from thin air.

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01-02-2015, 04:54 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 02:51 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 01:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think I agree with that. If I go discover gold or diamonds or oil in my back yard, then wealth will have been created without debt.
So, do you mean that wealth is not money, or something more specific like a government can't print new money except through debt? Even then, I would disagree.
The government gets new debt-free money by taxing my new debt-free wealth.

Your block of gold has a value but it is exchanged through the pre-existing money that is already in supply.That is for it to realise its monetary value it must be exchanged for a equivalent denomination. Your block of gold could be worth thousands but untill you have those digits in an account or the money in your hand, that block of gold is only of the value you give it. Gold, oil, labour..... They do not create money anywhere in any accounting way. Im sure if you had a gold mine you could have loads of gold, it all has a value as an asset and im sure you could lend some money against it, using that gold as collateral but that, as far as i am aware, is the only way money could be created.

With regards to governments buying their own debt, of course they can create as many digits as they want but it is not sustainable and is not the way of what a healthy economy would be percieved as being. It is a measure to be used under certain extreme circumstances. It is not 'the system', more of a tool used within the system.

Taxation recycles the money in supply, taxation creates no new money (as far as im aware)

Im thinking i may be missing something. Im sure there are financial instruments that create wealth without debt or relying on some sort of collateral to back it up. They however do not make up the vast majority of new money that is created through private banks through the form of loans or mortgages and other debt instruments.

The gold/diamonds/oil have actual value even in the absence of money. I can trade it for goods and services. You give far too much importance to money over wealth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: New greek finance minister.
(01-02-2015 04:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote: banks create money from thin air through the issuing of debt.

OMG, not this shit again. Are we really gonna go there again?

Quote:Ask an average person on the street where a bank gets its money that it lends out and im sure the vast majority may think that the money comes from other peoples deposits. Those who are a bit more knowledgeable will be aware that these loans go down as liabilities on a banks balance sheet.

Yip, looks like we're going there.

Quote:Taxation recycles the money in supply, taxation creates no new money (as far as im aware)

Im thinking i may be missing something. Im sure there are financial instruments that create wealth without debt or relying on some sort of collateral to back it up. They however do not make up the vast majority of new money that is created through private banks through the form of loans or mortgages and other debt instruments.

Banks giving out loans and mortgages is recycling money just as tax is.
Banks don't create money, they offer a service and they charge you for that service.

It's the exact same principle as coke cola. They produce a product for X amount of dollars and they charge you X+Y amount of dollars. That Y value is just a made up number by Coke (taking into account many factors) so that they make a profit.

With the bank, they lend you N amount of dollars and charge you X+Y interest rate.
X being their costs, Y being their profit.


The idea that banks create money out of thin air is not more true than any other business creating money from thin air.

Um. I think banks loan out MORE money than they have to maintain in reserves.
IF you put 2,000,000 in a bank they only need to keep a fraction in reserve. They LOAN (example) 10,000,000. THAT is creating money.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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