New terrorism
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13-09-2011, 02:32 PM
New terrorism
Hello everyone, new to the forum.
In the UK we have a programme called Question Time which has a panel of politicians and public figures debating topical issues in front of a live audience.

Last week our defence secretary Dr Liam Fox stated that: Osama BL was motivated by a violent anti western political philosophy not a religious one. Religion is seldom the problem but used as an excuse for violence and repression or for realising political motives. It is a tool used to limit expression and other freedoms but in of itself is not the problem. you can still see this on iplayer.

I also watched the Sam Harris debate with Reza Aslan on similar issues.

What are your thoughts on the, " it's not religion but politics and religion is merely the language used?"
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13-09-2011, 03:27 PM
RE: New terrorism
Wlecome to the forum.......im new here myself but this place is awesome.

I see politics as religion........id say 95% of hive mentality dont even question or care about the reasons why things happen, logical reasoning plays no part to some.

Politics draws the line between which is "good" and which is "bad".....much like religion.

Its a set of rules to live your life by Rolleyes

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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13-09-2011, 03:35 PM
 
RE: New terrorism
(13-09-2011 03:27 PM)bemore Wrote:  I see politics as religion........

Funny you say that, bemore, I used to think that religion is mostly politics -- at least by its practitioners above a certain level.

Big Grin
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13-09-2011, 04:14 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2011 04:18 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: New terrorism
There is nothing new here.

The power elite in civilized societies stands on three pillars.
The aristocracy, or administrators (the people who control wealth, are in charge of distribution and organization) the military, or enforcers (this includes police, secret service, etc: the stick, if you like, that keeps the population obedient) and the clergy, or seducers (all established and recognized religious bodies; they persuade the people, through insubstantial threats and bribes, to accept inferior status without protest). These pillars work together to keep the society stable, and the elite safe in their palaces.
That - regardless of external form - is political structure.

Major social upheavals happen when 1. the population rejects the whole cabal
or 2. the pillars have a falling-out among themselves: prelate turns against king, or army sides with rebellious populace, or state divests church of power.
This has nothing to do with piety: that's for the marks and minnows. The high priests don't believe a word of what they're preaching. (Look how they live and how come by their exalted position.)

The mythology, the faith, the awe, the values, the community spirit, the music, the charity - all those aspects of religion can exist quite well in any setting, public or private, with or without a name, with or without leadership or designated buildings or vestments; can coexist happily side by side. Religions don't collide - power elites do. Not over ideologies, either - over land, oil, gold, water, alliances, hegemony, personal glory, national acclaim...
And they shove everybody else into the conflict.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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13-09-2011, 08:20 PM
RE: New terrorism
Hey, Peterkin.

Nice shot, Red two. Aside from some a couple of issues, I gotta agree with you. Well said.

That and welcome, sgilbs.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-09-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: New terrorism
Red two?

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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14-09-2011, 03:41 PM
RE: New terrorism
OBL explicitly stated he would not stop acts of terror until the west was removed from the holy land of saudi arabia. if we accept this is not a religious position but a geopolitical one and he is cynically manipulating the religious for political purposes, it makes religion a huge problem since the religious are so easily manipulated by bad people? Couple that with the statistics Sam Harris mentioned in the debate I referred to: citing high levels of support for suicide bombing in defence of the faith & for martyrdom it appears free thinkers have their work cut out for them!!
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15-09-2011, 01:18 AM
RE: New terrorism
Other than the United States being intrusive to his "home land", how did religion influence Osama's hatred towards the western civilization? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm looking for an answer.
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15-09-2011, 02:12 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2011 02:17 AM by Organon.)
RE: New terrorism
(15-09-2011 01:18 AM)Crucify This! Wrote:  Other than the United States being intrusive to his "home land", how did religion influence Osama's hatred towards the western civilization? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm looking for an answer.

Osama was very religious and this had a HUGE bearing on his attitude to others, not just the USA. He belonged to a very strict form of Islam, Wahhabism.

He was very intelligent, and rich, inheriting $30 million from his parents.

He had 6 wives and up to 26 children.

He was as right-wing as anyone in the USA, rejecting fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and music, etc.

If you go back to the Christian Crusades, you can envisage the hatred towards the West and Christianity.

If you need an answer, an excuse, then Christianity can be held almost 100% guilty.

The Christian Crusades were viscious, devasting, cruel beyond belief.

Christians treated Muslims as they had treated any other non-believers, with ultimate destruction.

Christians would still be doing it today if it wasn't illegal. Read Christian forums and posts, they hate big time, anyone who doesn't believe in their crap.

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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15-09-2011, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2011 10:48 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: New terrorism
Well, the Islamic empire-builders were not all that sweet, either. Nor were the Roman, the Japanese, the Spanish or the British. Each of these peoples had a state religion which they spread along with their political power - but always headed by military might. All three working together.

It's difficult to pinpoint the original motivation, because religion is a very effective tool for persuading people to risk their lives in the service of their leaders' ambition. To guess at motivation, one would have to examine the first move in a series of hostilities: Who had what to gain? It's not always easy to identify the first move.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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