New terrorism
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15-09-2011, 11:54 AM
RE: New terrorism
(15-09-2011 01:18 AM)Crucify This! Wrote:  Other than the United States being intrusive to his "home land", how did religion influence Osama's hatred towards the western civilization? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm looking for an answer.

OBL's ideology was for the creation of a worldwide caliphate under sharia law, so if your an infidel as most of western world is then you are not top of his christmas card list.
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15-09-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: New terrorism
And yet, with all that money and zeal and so many millions of justifiably angry Muslims to recruit from, what does OBL's empire amount to? A few guerrilla cells hiding in caves, for decades, sending out a few suicide missions that cause hardly a ripple in their enemies' routine.* Religion, without the political and military structure of a nation, achieves very little. Ayatollah Khomeini waltzed into power, because he had that structure.

(* The disruptions to civil liberty and convenience were caused not by the attacks but by the target governments' reaction. The wars are unrelated to the terror attacks.)

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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15-09-2011, 12:24 PM
 
RE: New terrorism
(15-09-2011 12:18 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  The disruptions to civil liberty and convenience were caused not by the attacks but by the target governments' reaction.

According to several respectable sources (e.g. historian Gwynne Dyer) that was OBL's main goal from the start.
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16-09-2011, 04:54 AM
RE: New terrorism
If you look at the places in the world where there exists the most suicide bombers it's always in areas where the people are suffering in one way or another. Occupational forces, oppression from the government, war etc. In times of great hopelessness and crisis it is easier to accept anything that you believe can alleviate or end the suffering.

Most of the suicide bombers are young people, not the decision makers of the groups but the ones who have lost their homes and family members. Doesn't it sound a lot more likely that if they had had a stable society and surrounding they would never have committed suicide in the name of religion? If it was purely for religion wouldn't the older, higher ranking members of the organizations be the first ones killing themselves rather than sending the younger ones out there?

In my mind there's no doubt that the leaders of almost all organizations that are labelled terrorists are using people and religion for political gains.
That's my two cents on terrorism and religion Smile

/Martin
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16-09-2011, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2011 09:18 AM by myst32.)
RE: New terrorism
(13-09-2011 04:14 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  There is nothing new here.

The power elite in civilized societies stands on three pillars.
The aristocracy, or administrators (the people who control wealth, are in charge of distribution and organization) the military, or enforcers (this includes police, secret service, etc: the stick, if you like, that keeps the population obedient) and the clergy, or seducers (all established and recognized religious bodies; they persuade the people, through insubstantial threats and bribes, to accept inferior status without protest). These pillars work together to keep the society stable, and the elite safe in their palaces.
That - regardless of external form - is political structure.

Major social upheavals happen when 1. the population rejects the whole cabal
or 2. the pillars have a falling-out among themselves: prelate turns against king, or army sides with rebellious populace, or state divests church of power.
This has nothing to do with piety: that's for the marks and minnows. The high priests don't believe a word of what they're preaching. (Look how they live and how come by their exalted position.)

The mythology, the faith, the awe, the values, the community spirit, the music, the charity - all those aspects of religion can exist quite well in any setting, public or private, with or without a name, with or without leadership or designated buildings or vestments; can coexist happily side by side. Religions don't collide - power elites do. Not over ideologies, either - over land, oil, gold, water, alliances, hegemony, personal glory, national acclaim...
And they shove everybody else into the conflict.

Noam Chomsky?? Is that you? Smile
(16-09-2011 04:54 AM)MAD Wrote:  If you look at the places in the world where there exists the most suicide bombers it's always in areas where the people are suffering in one way or another. Occupational forces, oppression from the government, war etc. In times of great hopelessness and crisis it is easier to accept anything that you believe can alleviate or end the suffering.

Most of the suicide bombers are young people, not the decision makers of the groups but the ones who have lost their homes and family members. Doesn't it sound a lot more likely that if they had had a stable society and surrounding they would never have committed suicide in the name of religion? If it was purely for religion wouldn't the older, higher ranking members of the organizations be the first ones killing themselves rather than sending the younger ones out there?

In my mind there's no doubt that the leaders of almost all organizations that are labelled terrorists are using people and religion for political gains.
That's my two cents on terrorism and religion Smile

/Martin

There is an old saying...

"Old men declare war.. but it is the youth that must fight and die."

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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