New testament and Jesus debate help
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30-07-2013, 03:14 PM
New testament and Jesus debate help
Hi everybody, first post here.

I'm an atheist, and I've fallen in love with a gf who was born into a Christian family. We've already gotten into several "discussions" about religion, and because of this I've started educating myself more about the religion's shortcomings and debate material, which is why I came here.

I've read a lot about the Old testament crimes, and the contradictions in the bible, but I was hoping people here can give me more information about how to debate these two topics.

"I believe in the New testament." and the whole topic of "Jesus is great, resurrection, taking sin for all of humanity, etc etc."

Thanks for all the help!

PS. If anybody has been in a similar situation before, I would appreciate any tips on how best debate without destroying the relationship Thumbsup
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30-07-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ce-Library

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-07-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
You might not be able to.

Even if by some "miracle" she recognizes that her beliefs are garbage, she might not want to acknowledge it - because that would acknowledge her family is divorced from reality and lying.

You can say straight out that she believes in a magic man that created sin, imposed it on people automatically, and then created a blood sacrifice in order to fix his own mistake. And it's not even a sacrifice if the person becomes a god/demigod later on.

They'll try to excuse that as being a good, and a literal thing that happened.

Best of luck to you.
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30-07-2013, 09:30 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
Start with a simple question: if Jesus death is the payment for our sins, then who received the payment? God? But God Gave His Son. Did He make the payment AND receive it? So God made the payment, was the payment, and received the payment? Huh?

Jesus was the payment because blood atones for sin. Who made that rule? God. WHY? Just sit and wait for them to answer that. If God made that rule because it is just, then justice is greater than God. If that rule is justice because God set it up, then justice is arbitrary, and God could have set it up some other way.

Remember, I am not saying I am more moral, just or compassionate than God: I'm saying WE are.
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31-07-2013, 06:11 AM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
In order to believe in the NT, you have to put some stock in the OT because it is basically the prologue to the NT. If god never created the universe/earth/etc., nothing in the rest of the Buybull happened. Some of the prophecies in the OT (supposedly) talk about Jesus, so I'd think she believes those passages in the OT. I wonder what her thoughts on the 10 Commandments are since they're part of the OT.

“One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.”

- Bertrand Russel
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31-07-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
(31-07-2013 06:11 AM)eksyte Wrote:  In order to believe in the NT, you have to put some stock in the OT because it is basically the prologue to the NT. If god never created the universe/earth/etc., nothing in the rest of the Buybull happened. Some of the prophecies in the OT (supposedly) talk about Jesus, so I'd think she believes those passages in the OT. I wonder what her thoughts on the 10 Commandments are since they're part of the OT.

If Genesis is myth then there is no original sin for Jeebus to cleanse by being a human sacrifice. Since we know Genesis is at best parable for the transition from hunter-gatherer into agrarian (remember Genesis like much of the Buybull was lifted from the Sumerians and Babylonians) societies and must be myth (genetics can prove there was never a point at which our species was down to only 2 people or even 12 if the ark story is to be believe protip: it isn't Thumbsup ) You don't need to do anything other than ask if they subscribe to evolution. If the answer is no stop talking to them and back away slowly they are a rabid idiot and nothing you can say will affect them in any way. If they do then the house of cards that is the christian faith begins to tumble.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-07-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
(31-07-2013 09:38 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 06:11 AM)eksyte Wrote:  In order to believe in the NT, you have to put some stock in the OT because it is basically the prologue to the NT. If god never created the universe/earth/etc., nothing in the rest of the Buybull happened. Some of the prophecies in the OT (supposedly) talk about Jesus, so I'd think she believes those passages in the OT. I wonder what her thoughts on the 10 Commandments are since they're part of the OT.

If Genesis is myth then there is no original sin for Jeebus to cleanse by being a human sacrifice. Since we know Genesis is at best parable for the transition from hunter-gatherer into agrarian (remember Genesis like much of the Buybull was lifted from the Sumerians and Babylonians) societies and must be myth (genetics can prove there was never a point at which our species was down to only 2 people or even 12 if the ark story is to be believe protip: it isn't Thumbsup ) You don't need to do anything other than ask if they subscribe to evolution. If the answer is no stop talking to them and back away slowly they are a rabid idiot and nothing you can say will affect them in any way. If they do then the house of cards that is the christian faith begins to tumble.

Not only that but "messianism" arose in Isra-El ONLY after the political defeats. If the salvation paradigm had any part of the thinking of that culture, it would have been present MUCH earlier, (or at least mentioned once) BEFORE the destruction of the temples, and the Exile. Not only did they get the myths in Genesis from Babylonian mythology, but Talmud scholars have pointed out how exactly the Babble parallels the "Chaos vs order" mythology. It's about "chaos vs order", not "sin". (See Martin Buber's "Good and Evil")

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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31-07-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
I have some experience in this issue. If you would like to talk more in depth, feel free to IM me. But all intents and purposes on this forum, some personal advice.

Note: The most obvious, but sad truth: Don't bother. I don't say this to be rude. I say this from experience of myself and in others. Maybe this girl is different. And maybe you can work out your differences to each other and draw some lines that shouldn't be crossed. But things that are way in the future possibility for you, should sway you away from continuing on. How should you raise your kids is the biggest question and has about a million sub-questions such as: School, church, rules, obligations, punishments, etc. How to deal with each of your parents. Your marriage vows. How to spend money. There are a million and one things that come into play where a religious person will make a default answer solely based on their religion. It makes everything a lot harder, to say the least.

Additional Note: Always follow up. No matter what her answer is, see where the logic she gives you goes. Don't change or let the subject be changed.

1. Ask why she believes. Perfect opportunity to bring up the she-bang about kids having the same religion as their parents, geography, and culture. She might try and answer differently, but she won't be able to honestly give another answer because that is specifically why she believes it. If there are additional reasons, then address those, but her heritage should not get a free pass, it should be the focal point.

2. Bring up the idea that the Bible is in and of itself imperfect. With hundreds of contradictions and 2,000 accused gramatical errors. If the tool that is supposed to guide humanity is imperfect, why is humanity expected to adhere to it's standards?

3. Apologetics. The idea that a supreme being, should one exist, thinks in a whole other demnsion or plane of reasoning than we can understand is a stupid misguided argument. If we are made in his image and are strive to his standards, then we should be on that same reasoning.

4. You wouldn't be a friend with any person alive that had the personality of god. Why should you worship such a being.

5. Bring up all the bad. No matter OT or NT. The god of the jews is the same god of the christians, Jesus even said that. So all the bad crap, including the atrocities in Genesis and the eventual conquest of Canaan and the evils done to the assyrians, all of it as applicable.

Like I said, I got some deep experience in this if you want to talk it out or whatever.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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31-07-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
Quote:Posted by TwoCultSurvivor - Yesterday 09:30 PM
Start with a simple question: if Jesus death is the payment for our sins, then who received the payment? God? But God Gave His Son. Did He make the payment AND receive it? So God made the payment, was the payment, and received the payment? Huh?

This is probably the most accurate description of theology I have seen.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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31-07-2013, 08:25 PM
RE: New testament and Jesus debate help
(31-07-2013 08:03 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
Quote:Posted by TwoCultSurvivor - Yesterday 09:30 PM
Start with a simple question: if Jesus death is the payment for our sins, then who received the payment? God? But God Gave His Son. Did He make the payment AND receive it? So God made the payment, was the payment, and received the payment? Huh?

This is probably the most accurate description of theology I have seen.

The question is, why ?
Systematics (theology) says it "was necessary".
That alone refutes the entire business transaction.
It means a deity is "subject" (necessarily) to a system/structure in Reality.
No creator of Reality is "subject" to a creature/creation.
Either the deity created Reality or not. If it created Reality, it can't be subject to it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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