Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-05-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 05:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 04:08 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  Then, you're wrong. That's not the whole argument.

Do feel free to educate me then.

Edward Feser's The Last Superstition is a good start. But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(15-05-2017 09:51 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
Quote:DOES GOD EXIST? SOME SCIENTISTS THINK THEY HAVE PROOF

But they don't though, do they? Drinking Beverage
[Image: 4f06762e3d80a80139972e064310760f.jpg]

I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 07:38 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The "brick and glass" analogy isn't the best. Let's try another one: mass and gravity. It could be said that mass "causes" gravity, but there is no temporal sequence. Wherever (and whenever) you have mass, you have gravity -- there was never a time and/or place where mass existed without gravity. Their existence is simultaneous and inseparable. This is the kind of thing that theists mean by "first cause" when they present that argument (unless it's the Kalam argument, which does involve a temporal sequence). I still don't buy the argument, but if we want to dispute it, we have to address what they're actually claiming, and they generally aren't claiming temporal cause and effect -- it's more like the mass-gravity thing. Whenever and wherever a contingent thing exists, its existence is supported/sustained by the "first cause" ("and this we call God").

Again, I am definitely not accepting or agreeing with that argument -- just clarifying what it is that they're claiming.

I think the mass/gravity example is definitely better but it seems to be more a limitation of our comprehension than anything real. It assumes that mass "sustains" gravity or that gravity "sustains" mass when they may either be different ways of looking at the same thing or both "sustained" by something else.

In the end, it just leads to a different infinite regress or special pleading; if the universe needs something to 'sustain' it then why doesn't that thing need something else to sustain it? If the universe-sustainer doesn't need to be sustained then why does the universe need to be sustained?

The argument always boils down to "I don't know, therefore god".

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like unfogged's post
16-05-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 10:30 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 05:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  Do feel free to educate me then.

Edward Feser's The Last Superstition is a good start. But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.

Beware, though -- Feser's book is kind of like the other side of The God Delusion -- he is every bit as sarcastic and dismissive about atheism as Dawkins is about theism. If you read it as an atheist, be prepared to be offended.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
16-05-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 10:30 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.


Well, enlighten us yourself, oh, you, enlightened one. That's why you're here, after all, isn't it? Drinking Beverage

Grasshopper, the ONLY thing ANY religionist can ever offend, is my intelligence. And my sense of basic human decency, too.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vera's post
16-05-2017, 11:17 AM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 10:30 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 05:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  Do feel free to educate me then.

Edward Feser's The Last Superstition is a good start. But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.

Whatever you do, don't bother with the idiot Feser's "Last Superstition".
It's probably one of THE WORST PIECES OF SHIT books I've ever wasted my time reading.
There is a reason he can't get a job at a real university.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2017, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2017 11:34 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 04:08 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(15-05-2017 11:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  AFAIK that whole argument relies on going back further and further in time to find the "Prime cause", on the basis that an infinite string of causes is absurd?

Then, you're wrong. That's not the whole argument.

First Cause is not really even the argument. Its really "proximal cause" (nearest cause). An omnipotent god could have made a race of robot universe makers. IF the Big Bang was a Singularity, all known laws of science break down, there. We do not have enough information to say anything about "causes" or anything. Simultaneity answers nothing. The deity STILL has to will and intend to create, BOTH of which has to precede the creation. It's meaningless nonsense. Causality itself needs explanation. How does a deity cause Causality (as a principle) ? Did this god *find itself* in a Reality which already possessed Causality ? If not, who created Reality ? If the god 'exists', then it MUST participate in the very Reality it supposedly created, and participate only partially. None of the important questions are answered by First Cause, AND it presumes Reality apart from inside this universe has the same properties as inside it. It also presumes that Reality works according to what is intuitive to human brains. We know that is not the case. It is no "argument" *at all*.

There are no "proofs" for the gods. If there were, faith would be unnecessary. People don't need faith for things that are "proven".
The Christian god says "No one shall come to me UNLESS the Father draw him". There is no point in saying that if it's everyone, and it's certainly not in anyone's control.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
16-05-2017, 12:13 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 10:46 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 10:30 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  Edward Feser's The Last Superstition is a good start. But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.

Beware, though -- Feser's book is kind of like the other side of The God Delusion -- he is every bit as sarcastic and dismissive about atheism as Dawkins is about theism. If you read it as an atheist, be prepared to be offended.

Feser has a blog site.

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/

For those not familiar with Feser, he is a college professor and philosopher. he is Catholic and a champion of Aquinas. He has written several books. He is often rather polemical. Especially when it comes to atheism.

That said, Feser often goes deeper into philosophical problems related to God etc than many other blogs or forums. Reviewing recent books and journal articles.
Well worth the occasional read to avoid slipping into atheist strawman arguments.

If one is interested in more "sophisticated" anti-atheist efforts, worth occasionally reading his site.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cheerful Charlie's post
16-05-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 11:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 10:30 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  Edward Feser's The Last Superstition is a good start. But, as already suggested, the information is readily available via your keyboard.

Whatever you do, don't bother with the idiot Feser's "Last Superstition".
It's probably one of THE WORST PIECES OF SHIT books I've ever wasted my time reading.
There is a reason he can't get a job at a real university.

Yes, it's a stupid book. And Feser can be a dolt. He is of interest in that despite his dislike of atheism, his case is weak. Like Alister McGrath in some ways. But it's nice to know just how weak the anti-atheist case is by occasionally looking into the supposed knowledgeable anti-atheists just to see how weak that all is.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
Ya know CC, I don't really have an interest in philosophy per se. You said I was wrong, but you didn't say why, just to read a book? When I made my argument I said why - otherwise why can't I answer you by saying "Oh, just read Richard Dawkins and you'll see I'm right"?

I was looking for "That's not the whole argument, this is what you missed." Even a few sentences.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: