Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
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16-05-2017, 12:39 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  Ya know CC, I don't really have an interest in philosophy per se. You said I was wrong, but you didn't say why, just to read a book? When I made my argument I said why - otherwise why can't I answer you by saying "Oh, just read Richard Dawkins and you'll see I'm right"?

I was looking for "That's not the whole argument, this is what you missed." Even a few sentences.

You didn't miss nothing. Yes, Feser is often a dolt, but he is interesting to look at just to see how weak the case against atheism is. One expects better from professors of philosophy like this and people like Plantinga, so it's nice to look into schnooks like this. Just to know, that as an atheist, I ain't missing anything.

His website is interesting to see what is going on in the circles he runs in.

I have an interest in philosophy because philosophy has a habit of being full of woo and supporting bad ideas, including theology. Feser peddles woo, and writes books peddling woo.

It would be silly if it was all some sort of new age crap nobody cares about, but that this all feeds a lot of bad religion, directly or indirectly, it's nice to know what is going on out there in wooly mind land.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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16-05-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

The argument seems sound, but:

(1) It requires you to accept two rather dubious axioms: (a) Every contingent thing or event must have a cause; (b) An infinite regress of causes is absurd/impossible. If you don't buy into both of those, the argument will not impress you.

(2) The conclusion is nothing more than "there must be an uncaused cause". From there to the Christian God is a huge step. Aquinas apparently takes this step in Summa Contra Gentiles, which I haven't bothered to read. I'm not sure that part can be easily summarized.

In my opinion, the Christian God is at least as absurd as an infinite regress of causes.
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16-05-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

Where did I intimate Aquinas was correct? He is not. Feser, being a Catholic has written books on Aquinas and attempts to prop up the 5 Ways of Aquinas. He ain't right either. But he peddles this to those looking for a theological straw to grasp.

Planting is interesting in many ways as he invents new bad arguments that have been pretty influential. A lot of people seem to take him seriously.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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16-05-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

Where did I intimate Aquinas was correct? He is not. Feser, being a Catholic has written books on Aquinas and attempts to prop up the 5 Ways of Aquinas. He ain't right either. But he peddles this to those looking for a theological straw to grasp.

Planting is interesting in many ways as he invents new bad arguments that have been pretty influential. A lot of people seem to take him seriously.

Whoops, I forgot you're also CC. I was referring to Cold Comfort, the man who's so dismissive when one pokes holes in the Aquinas thing but tells you to go read some random book when asked to point out exactly what was wrong with what you said.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

The argument seems sound, but:

(1) It requires you to accept two rather dubious axioms: (a) Every contingent thing or event must have a cause; (b) An infinite regress of causes is absurd/impossible. If you don't buy into both of those, the argument will not impress you.

(2) The conclusion is nothing more than "there must be an uncaused cause". From there to the Christian God is a huge step. Aquinas apparently takes this step in Summa Contra Gentiles, which I haven't bothered to read. I'm not sure that part can be easily summarized.

In my opinion, the Christian God is at least as absurd as an infinite regress of causes.

What is a contingent thing? What is a cause?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  A friend tricked me into reading Platinga a while ago... I'm not keen to repeat the experience.

CC: Please: If this Aquinas argument is sound and you understand it, then lay it out for us.

Where did I intimate Aquinas was correct? He is not. Feser, being a Catholic has written books on Aquinas and attempts to prop up the 5 Ways of Aquinas. He ain't right either. But he peddles this to those looking for a theological straw to grasp.

Planting is interesting in many ways as he invents new bad arguments that have been pretty influential. A lot of people seem to take him seriously.

I haven't actually read much of Plantinga, just browsed a little, but my impression is that he doesn't try to prove God's existence. He sets his sights much lower -- to show that God's existence is plausible. I guess I'd have to read more of his stuff to have an opinion as to whether or not he succeeds, but on the surface at least, he seems less ridiculous than Feser and his Thomists, who seem to think they can irrefutably prove God's existence.
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16-05-2017, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2017 01:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Plantinga is interesting in many ways as he invents new bad arguments that have been pretty influential. A lot of people seem to take him seriously.

... including WLC. Facepalm
I have always been surprised people take him seriously. Debunking him is child's play.

In the Last Superstition Feser starts off the pedantic tome by bitching that the "sowing of evil", is what, he thinks Atheism is all about. INSTANTLY, on the first 1/2 page, the intellectual position is placed in a judgmental moral context. Not surprising at all, for a 2012 American Catholic Fundamentalist.

Next he insults an entire class of human beings, and bitches further, about the California Supreme Court decision to extend the right of legal marriage to gay people, and by doing so was granting "equal dignity to family and sodomy", (seriously, in the 21st Century ??) I knew on page 1, the book was a piece of prejudicial trash.
Debunking his argument for idealism takes about 5 seconds, and a 3rd Grader can do it, blindfolded.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-05-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 01:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The argument seems sound, but:

(1) It requires you to accept two rather dubious axioms: (a) Every contingent thing or event must have a cause; (b) An infinite regress of causes is absurd/impossible. If you don't buy into both of those, the argument will not impress you.

(2) The conclusion is nothing more than "there must be an uncaused cause". From there to the Christian God is a huge step. Aquinas apparently takes this step in Summa Contra Gentiles, which I haven't bothered to read. I'm not sure that part can be easily summarized.

In my opinion, the Christian God is at least as absurd as an infinite regress of causes.

What is a contingent thing? What is a cause?

A contingent thing is any thing that exists, but could have not existed (as opposed to a necessary thing, which must exist). By theistic logic, God is the only necessary being, and he must exist, because everything can't be contingent -- that would require an infinite regress of causes, you see.

As for cause, that's a bit tricky. You really have to familiarize yourself with Aristotelian/Thomistic terminology to know exactly what they mean by that, but it's closer to the mass/gravity thing that I mentioned a few posts back than it is to our modern notions of cause and effect.
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16-05-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Newsweek - Scientists Prove God Exists?
(16-05-2017 01:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:55 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Where did I intimate Aquinas was correct? He is not. Feser, being a Catholic has written books on Aquinas and attempts to prop up the 5 Ways of Aquinas. He ain't right either. But he peddles this to those looking for a theological straw to grasp.

Planting is interesting in many ways as he invents new bad arguments that have been pretty influential. A lot of people seem to take him seriously.

I haven't actually read much of Plantinga, just browsed a little, but my impression is that he doesn't try to prove God's existence. He sets his sights much lower -- to show that God's existence is plausible. I guess I'd have to read more of his stuff to have an opinion as to whether or not he succeeds, but on the surface at least, he seems less ridiculous than Feser and his Thomists, who seem to think they can irrefutably prove God's existence.


You are correct here. Plantinga is about offering "defenses", a way of keeping atheists from slamming the door on God for once and for all.

There is a little essay by Plantinga where he explains himself on this point.

http://www.religion-online.org/showartic...title=2504

Reply to the Basingers on Divine Omnipotence

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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