Nick Seldon - A Quotation
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07-08-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(07-08-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I understand, of course, but my point remains:

Please tell us all about these "simple beginnings" that you understand formed prokaryotes, as scientists seem unable to "begin" them "simply" or "complexly" using our best possible intelligent design.

Which part of hundreds of millions of years did you not understand? Consider

Heck, I'll even put a bet down.

If we recreated, in a sealed chamber, the conditions of paleoarchean Earth, and left it running for, oh, say, five hundred million years, I give very high odds that self-replicating organic structures would be observable by the end of the experiment.

Any takers?

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17-08-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(07-08-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I understand, of course, but my point remains:

Please tell us all about these "simple beginnings" that you understand formed prokaryotes, as scientists seem unable to "begin" them "simply" or "complexly" using our best possible intelligent design.

Which part of hundreds of millions of years did you not understand? Consider

Hundreds of millions of years of what? Collisions of random particles?

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17-08-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(07-08-2015 05:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Despite the difficulties in figuring out how to "speed up" the processes that led to the early cells (once we narrow down our numerous possible routes that it could have happened to a smaller number of most-likely candidates), I am confident that it will be done within the next few years. Our ability to sequence genes, to look at the composition of interstellar/cometary ice's biochemical formations, and to figure out the folding patterns of proteins is advancing too quickly for it to be far off. Once the Polymerase Chain Reaction, ultra-high-speed computers, and related technologies were invented in the mid-80s, it was a done deal. It makes me especially happy that NASA is still putting money toward this sort of research, and using their results to guide present and future million/billion-dollar missions to deep space. It makes me just as sad to see that Below-Average Joe just can't seem to grasp why it's so difficult to reproduce 500,000,000 years of action across thousands of square miles of thermal vent (or wherever) chemistry-areas in a desktop laboratory, and that people who make lucrative careers off the We Want to Believe™ crowd continue to push the confusion. Really, how hard is it to figure out!?!

My former field team partner Shane has a bumper sticker on his Jeep that says, "Can't count to a billion? Become a Creationist!"

Always liked that one.

Our ability to sequence genes as you wrote, which is intelligent explorers examining sequences that bear the hallmarks of ultra-refined designs, still does not explain how "counting a billion" makes the genes exist from chaos or swirling, random particles colliding.

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17-08-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(17-08-2015 12:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Which part of hundreds of millions of years did you not understand? Consider

Hundreds of millions of years of what? Collisions of random particles?

Of chemistry. There are chemicals, not "random particles", interacting.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-08-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(07-08-2015 06:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Which part of hundreds of millions of years did you not understand? Consider

Heck, I'll even put a bet down.

If we recreated, in a sealed chamber, the conditions of paleoarchean Earth, and left it running for, oh, say, five hundred million years, I give very high odds that self-replicating organic structures would be observable by the end of the experiment.

Any takers?

I would be hesitant to take your wager unless I knew about natural law including the tendency of collisions to destroy rather than create; entropy and other laws. Perhaps like the Big Bang and Conservation of Matter and Energy, you will use the atheist "god of the gaps" of saying the laws weren't... really... laws... yet...

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17-08-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(17-08-2015 12:47 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Our ability to sequence genes as you wrote, which is intelligent explorers examining sequences that bear the hallmarks of ultra-refined designs,

No, DNA shows all the hallmarks of mindless evolution. There are mistakes, duplications, non-functioning parts that are clearly not "ultra-refined designs".

Quote:still does not explain how "counting a billion" makes the genes exist from chaos or swirling, random particles colliding.

Chemistry, not particles. Read a biochemistry book. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-08-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(17-08-2015 12:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Which part of hundreds of millions of years did you not understand? Consider

Hundreds of millions of years of what? Collisions of random particles?

Chemical reactions taking place.

You do realize that amino acids, proteins, DNA, and so on are all just chemicals, yes?

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17-08-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(17-08-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would be hesitant to take your wager unless I knew about natural law including the tendency of collisions to destroy rather than create; entropy and other laws. Perhaps like the Big Bang and Conservation of Matter and Energy, you will use the atheist "god of the gaps" of saying the laws weren't... really... laws... yet...

The second law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems.

Earth is not a closed system.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
(17-08-2015 12:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hundreds of millions of years of what? Collisions of random particles?

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18-08-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Nick Seldon - A Quotation
A chance accumulation of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen; add a pinch of phosphorus and sulfur, simmer for millions of years, and repeat if necessary. If life from chemicals were possible, it would be called spontaneous generation.

Nucleotides themselves are complicated chemical molecules--the DNA chain contains billions of nucleotides connected together in a long, precisely ordered chain.

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