No Gender December: Does it even matter?
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27-12-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(21-12-2016 06:41 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  My daughter plays with a Freddy Krueger doll. What gender is that for?

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27-12-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(26-12-2016 05:56 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Not saying they should be paid equally, but therapy does contribute to society. Dance is also a good form of exercise. I see no reason to completely dismiss dance as a form of therapy. Seems completely plausible that it'd help some people. Blink
I don't think "feminist dance therapy" is an actual thing. It's a meme, you dip. Tongue

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27-12-2016, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2016 12:17 PM by epronovost.)
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(27-12-2016 07:22 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(26-12-2016 05:56 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Not saying they should be paid equally, but therapy does contribute to society. Dance is also a good form of exercise. I see no reason to completely dismiss dance as a form of therapy. Seems completely plausible that it'd help some people. Blink
I don't think "feminist dance therapy" is an actual thing. It's a meme, you dip. Tongue

I know a person who uses dance as a form of therapy, she also happens to be a feminist, but the two are unrelated. Apparently, it's a good approach to cure social anxiety, certain phobia and, with the support of medication, depression. It's also used by some in later stage of physical readaptation. It sounds weird and stupid, but it has demonstrated rather impressive results. Non-competitive sports are excellent for mental health when you suffer from anxiety and dance fits the bill rather nicely. Thus, combining the practice of dance and standard therapy to solve mental health issue isn't that stupid. Ironically, dance therapist have almost the same salary than engineers in Canada with an average of $55 000 for the therapists and $63 000 for the engineers. The only problem is that the therapist has on average about three more years of scholarity than the engineers. In the same vein, there is also therapy based on yoga and martial arts. While I don't see myself following dance therapy to cure myself of a potential depression for fear of ridicule, if it works, it works.

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27-12-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(26-12-2016 06:03 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(26-12-2016 01:18 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Interesting article that supports the "hard-wired" brain theory...

http://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-...s-differ#1

Smartass

We have different understanding of this article. In my opinion, it seems to support the "soft-wired" brain theory over the "blank slate" brain theory and the "hard-wired" brain theory. The "soft-wired" theory explain the difference between men and women neural construct as mostly due to environmental condition (like culture, education, alimentation, life experience, healthcare, etc.), with very little "hard-wired" differences, the existing one's being mostly due to hormones. The "hard-wired" brain theory state the opposite, that environmental condition plays a relatively small role compared to "hard-wired" neural construct. The "blank slate" theory state that there is no such thing as a "hard-wired" neural construct difference between humans. To my knowledge, the "soft-wired" brain theory seems to be the most supported at the moment. In all cases, it's a nice little article.

So were did these cultures come from then? And why are there many universals like men being stronger in almost every, if not every country? The soft-wired thing bets to much on society forming sex differences instead of the biology and the environment. Society is just an expression of our evolution after all.

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27-12-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(27-12-2016 12:13 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(27-12-2016 07:22 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I don't think "feminist dance therapy" is an actual thing. It's a meme, you dip. Tongue

I know a person who uses dance as a form of therapy, she also happens to be a feminist, but the two are unrelated. Apparently, it's a good approach to cure social anxiety, certain phobia and, with the support of medication, depression. It's also used by some in later stage of physical readaptation. It sounds weird and stupid, but it has demonstrated rather impressive results. Non-competitive sports are excellent for mental health when you suffer from anxiety and dance fits the bill rather nicely. Thus, combining the practice of dance and standard therapy to solve mental health issue isn't that stupid. Ironically, dance therapist have almost the same salary than engineers in Canada with an average of $55 000 for the therapists and $63 000 for the engineers. The only problem is that the therapist has on average about three more years of scholarity than the engineers. In the same vein, there is also therapy based on yoga and martial arts. While I don't see myself following dance therapy to cure myself of a potential depression for fear of ridicule, if it works, it works.

Tongue

Well, I gotta agree. In the 1920's through to the 1950's ordinary, common people knew how to dance socially. The dancing wasn't anything fancy, a simple fox trot or little waltzie dance was fine. Kids learned to dance when they were 12 or so, even farm kids with two left feet. When the big bands toured the country people went to see them to dance to the music not sit in a chair and watch them play and the music wasn't loud so a person could actually have a conversation when they danced. I've always thought something was lost in the 60's when the music got so loud that people couldn't talk to each other when they danced. Maybe people don't overcome their social anxiety through common social dancing anymore so it's festered and grown over the last few decades. Just a guess.

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27-12-2016, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2016 08:02 PM by epronovost.)
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(27-12-2016 02:37 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(26-12-2016 06:03 PM)epronovost Wrote:  We have different understanding of this article. In my opinion, it seems to support the "soft-wired" brain theory over the "blank slate" brain theory and the "hard-wired" brain theory. The "soft-wired" theory explain the difference between men and women neural construct as mostly due to environmental condition (like culture, education, alimentation, life experience, healthcare, etc.), with very little "hard-wired" differences, the existing one's being mostly due to hormones. The "hard-wired" brain theory state the opposite, that environmental condition plays a relatively small role compared to "hard-wired" neural construct. The "blank slate" theory state that there is no such thing as a "hard-wired" neural construct difference between humans. To my knowledge, the "soft-wired" brain theory seems to be the most supported at the moment. In all cases, it's a nice little article.

So were did these cultures come from then? And why are there many universals like men being stronger in almost every, if not every country? The soft-wired thing bets to much on society forming sex differences instead of the biology and the environment. Society is just an expression of our evolution after all.

Societies are an environment. The two are not different things. There is no such thing as culture vs envioronment. Culture comes from a multitude of factor like physical envioronment, cultural exchange, human history, disease, technological advance, religion and beliefs and yes, even genes. If you want to know were a specific culture comes from open a history or anthropology book (actually several big ones from both discipline) and you will have the best answer you can get. Cultures are always changing and transforming themselves as human transform their environment, trade ideas and goods and fight amongst one another. What caused the "hard-wired" brain theory to fall out of favor in recent years was that high modularity of the brain wasn't demonstrated. If sexual dimorphism in human bodies is apperant, it's rather light (and still rather murky on the details), especially next to that of other primates. This article present the fact that in terms of brain neural structure, sexual dimorphism seems to be even lighter and harder to pin-point since the human brain is even more plastic than the human musculoskeletal system, without denying that some certainly exist due to obvious hormonal differences.

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27-12-2016, 10:17 PM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Societies are an environment. The two are not different things.

Well no a society is a collection of humans. So they are different things.

(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  There is no such thing as culture vs envioronment.


(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Culture comes from a multitude of factor like physical envioronment, cultural exchange, human history, disease, technological advance, religion and beliefs and yes, even genes.

Really culture comes from evolution, which is a combination of an organisms biology and the environment.

(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Cultures are always changing and transforming themselves as human transform their environment, trade ideas and goods and fight amongst one another.

A. The environment still effects what humans can change. That is why cities are located in some places and not others. Same with farms. So humans can't change the environment, but work with what the environment gives them(like every other animal).

B. Goods also depend on the environment. Can't trade people sea food while you live in the desert


(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  What caused the "hard-wired" brain theory to fall out of favor in recent years was that high modularity of the brain wasn't demonstrated. If sexual dimorphism in human bodies is apperant, it's rather light (and still rather murky on the details), especially next to that of other primates.

I wouldn't call human sexual dimorphism heavy(as is the case for many mammals, including other apes) but I wouldn't call it light either. There is a clear sexual dimorphism in humans, with any outliers being in a very small minority. Thing with humans is that even when we do things differently (like how little boys and girls learn) it doesn't mean that one is better at one thing than the other(except language, girls seem to own that one.)

(27-12-2016 03:39 PM)epronovost Wrote:  This article present the fact that in terms of brain neural structure, sexual dimorphism seems to be even lighter and harder to pin-point since the human brain is even more plastic than the human musculoskeletal system, without denying that some certainly exist due to obvious hormonal differences.

Neuroplasticity is still limited by biology. The problem with people now a days is they think neuroplasticity means that if most boys like cars, we can still mold them to like dolls anyway(which fails, ask scandinavia.)

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28-12-2016, 01:01 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2016 03:35 AM by epronovost.)
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(27-12-2016 10:17 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well no a society is a collection of humans. So they are different things.

A social environment is an environment nontheless. It can have tremendous impact on your development. Just think about hygene difference between someone born in the slums of Sao Paulo and someone born in the rich sphere of the same city or how many words a baby born in a poor family hears everyday compared to a middle class baby and a rich baby (its called the word gap if you want to research it quickly). More close to you, just imagine living in an abusive and neglectful family vs a normal one. You, born completly normal, could have tremendous development and learning problems prely due to a bad family environment. I see those on a daily basis.

(27-12-2016 10:17 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Really culture comes from evolution, which is a combination of an organisms biology and the environment.

It's cultures, not culture, since there isn't a single one. While it's true that physical environment and genes have role in the creation of human the various human culture, the fact that Huns and Sarmatian for example, both living in very similar environment were culturaly very different from one another attest to the fact that that all the elements are mentionned and maybe some more come into play to create a culture. Same things for Greek, Romans and Sassanids; Maya and Cambodian, Crie and Inuits. Cultures can be seen as different strategies to survive and prosper in a specific environment, developped both consciously and unsconciously, and are submitted to a sort of "evolutionary selection" based on its capacity to reproduce and exploit their environment. They are both a product of genes and environment and response to the challenge they present. Claming that culture is only the product of organism biology and the physical environment is a faulty generalisation.

(27-12-2016 10:17 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  A. The environment still effects what humans can change. That is why cities are located in some places and not others. Same with farms. So humans can't change the environment, but work with what the environment gives them(like every other animal).

B. Goods also depend on the environment. Can't trade people sea food while you live in the desert

I am not sure if this is pure tautology for the sake of illustration or an actual argument in which case the section A is demonstrably wrong since there are farms in the arctic circles (they produce fish, green vegetable and even sweet berries) and even in god damn space (we grow fungus and bacteria for experiment there). There is also cities in all major ecological niche in the world except maybe open sea (unless you consider oil platforms and cruise ship as cities) or on the floor of the ocean, but its pretty much a question of time before we do it for a reason or another.

(27-12-2016 10:17 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I wouldn't call human sexual dimorphism heavy(as is the case for many mammals, including other apes) but I wouldn't call it light either. There is a clear sexual dimorphism in humans, with any outliers being in a very small minority. Thing with humans is that even when we do things differently (like how little boys and girls learn) it doesn't mean that one is better at one thing than the other(except language, girls seem to own that one.)

The article presented earlier refute your position of outliers being a small minority to be the completle opposite. People who have clearly "women's brain" represent about 10% of the population; same thing for men who clearly have a "men's brain". 80% of the population, the vast majority have an extremely eclectic mix of both and that's not counting men who clearly have a "women's brain" and vice versa. Overlap between men and women is enormous. If you were to gender people with their brain scan you would barely do better than if you flipped a coin. As for the qualification of "light dimorphism" it's simply because if we were to place humans in company of all other species who exibit sexual dimorphism humans would be in the lower tears thus the qualification "light".

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28-12-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
What???

I've got no idea. I swear the Lib's want to ape the GOP.

Fuck 'em.

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28-12-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: No Gender December: Does it even matter?
(28-12-2016 01:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  A social environment is an environment nontheless. It can have tremendous impact on your development. Just think about hygene difference between someone born in the slums of Sao Paulo and someone born in the rich sphere of the same city or how many words a baby born in a poor family hears everyday compared to a middle class baby and a rich baby (its called the word gap if you want to research it quickly). More close to you, just imagine living in an abusive and neglectful family vs a normal one. You, born completly normal, could have tremendous development and learning problems prely due to a bad family environment. I see those on a daily basis.

Well I wouldn't call it an environment. Just how humans interact in it. After all culture influences evolution.

(28-12-2016 01:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  It's cultures, not culture, since there isn't a single one. While it's true that physical environment and genes have role in the creation of human the various human culture, the fact that Huns and Sarmatian for example, both living in very similar environment were culturaly very different from one another attest to the fact that that all the elements are mentionned and maybe some more come into play to create a culture. Same things for Greek, Romans and Sassanids; Maya and Cambodian, Crie and Inuits. Cultures can be seen as different strategies to survive and prosper in a specific environment, developped both consciously and unsconciously, and are submitted to a sort of "evolutionary selection" based on its capacity to reproduce and exploit their environment. They are both a product of genes and environment and response to the challenge they present. Claming that culture is only the product of organism biology and the physical environment is a faulty generalisation.

Yeah, because even if two people live in the same environment, doesn't mean they live in the exact same conditions of that environment. For example, two groups of people can live in a forest. However one that lives in an open patch in the middle of the forest will have a different culture than the one that lives. This is effected by enviornment. However cultures are more similar than they seem even when different. For example, a Japanese sport would be sumo, while an american sport would be football. Both are completely different sports, both still incorporate violence and appeal to a vastly male audience. In every culture, you notice men kill way more often than women. So yes culture is only a result of evolution, nothing more. To assume that they can pop up without either of those influences would be some sort of creationismTongue


(28-12-2016 01:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  I am not sure if this is pure tautology for the sake of illustration or an actual argument in which case the section A is demonstrably wrong since there are farms in the arctic circles (they produce fish, green vegetable and even sweet berries) and even in god damn space (we grow fungus and bacteria for experiment there).

Yeah, and that is effected by the environment. Berries and greens grew in the artic before humans came along. So even the plants grown their are affected by the environment. Humans, like every other animals, have to change something in order to survive in an environment. Even in space. So again environment effects culture, like it effects every animal, that is my point.

(28-12-2016 01:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  There is also cities in all major ecological niche in the world except maybe open sea (unless you consider oil platforms and cruise ship as cities) or on the floor of the ocean, but its pretty much a question of time before we do it for a reason or another.

Yeah, and cities are built around their environment. Cities in were there can be winter have snow plows. Cities on the equator not so much.

(28-12-2016 01:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  The article presented earlier refute your position of outliers being a small minority to be the completle opposite. People who have clearly "women's brain" represent about 10% of the population; same thing for men who clearly have a "men's brain". 80% of the population, the vast majority have an extremely eclectic mix of both and that's not counting men who clearly have a "women's brain" and vice versa. Overlap between men and women is enormous. If you were to gender people with their brain scan you would barely do better than if you flipped a coin. As for the qualification of "light dimorphism" it's simply because if we were to place humans in company of all other species who exibit sexual dimorphism humans would be in the lower tears thus the qualification "light".

Yeah, no that ain't gonna fly, because I know the paper they are talking about. First, daphna has a clear political bias towards this issue. So much so that when you look into it you realize that her graphs and charts contradict they point she is making, with some even showing that males that tend towards female in brain patterns as rare.

Second, that paper assumes that if a man likes one thing "traditionally" female but lifts weights, is a fighter, goes to the shooting range, makes crude jokes and loves cars is similar in brain pattern to the women who does her make up, reads 50 shades of grey, knits, and loves romcoms, but also likes UFC.

Third, the paper assumes that even if males and females share something in common(lets use child care and competing). So if a man takes care of his child, that would be considered some what feminine(at least now), however the paper doesn't say whether there is a difference or not. Like a man and a woman could care for the child, but they dad likes to play rough with the little tots, while the mom likes to nurse them. This would be child care, but one that is more typical of males and another for females. Same with competing. Males and females both compete against one another, but they do it differently. Men for example, pretty much fight or try to sabatoge physically usually (it is why men tend to make up the most murders and murder victims, across every culture). Female's usually try to talk shit about each other or prove themselves better. Fighting does happen, but not as much as men( ain't a lot of female on female murders happening for a reason).

So yes, men who like doing things like wearing make up and playing with dolls(yes even in sweden, the country were if it was really society effecting behavior would have boys playing with dolls) are still a very small minority. I guess it is fair to say that women aren't as atypical as men, but the typicialites are there none the less.

So the source quoted a study that admits there are sex differences, but tries to explain them away anyway, not because there was any proof that sex differences are near invisible, but because there was a political motivation behind it. But I guess that is what happens when psychologist try to play biologist. Sorry, but evolution made us different enough were societies are going to have things typical even if they look different. And I heard people quote this study so much and think it isn't flawed, it is getting depressing.

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