No God, no morality
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02-12-2015, 10:13 AM
No God, no morality
At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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02-12-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: No God, no morality
Morality isn't about just rich people giving money. Life isn't all about money. But yea, in this context it does show the absurdity that rich people have to be religious to do that.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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02-12-2015, 10:40 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

No God, no Religion. And yet they somehow managed to pull that off for a few thousand years.

The argument is morality would be irrational with no God, not that it would go away.

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02-12-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

While many people don't believe in a god or stop believing in one, they retain all of the same ideas about morality that religion teaches. Some who have never been believers are also indoctrinated with the morality of selflessness and sacrifice. It is and has been the dominant ethical theory for 2,000 years or more. Leftists and socialists hold the same fundamental principles and ethics that religionists do, they just drop the belief in god. Whether the collector of the sacrifice is a god, the society, or nature as in environmentalism, the basic principle is the same: man has no right to live for his own sake, his life and property must be sacrificed for the good of others. Bill gates was a greedy bastard when he was making all that money, even though he arguably did more good for more people in doing so. Earning and creating are seen as selfish and now he's a good guy because he is giving it all away. As Yaron Brook likes to say "and if he would move into a tent and maybe show a little blood running" he would be a saint.

It is hilarious to see the Tea Party railing against big government and taxes when they hold the exact same ethics as the leftists. I've pointed this out to many of them but they can't see it because they can't think in terms of essential principles. That's why they will never do more than make a bunch of noise and why I think they are seen as hypocrites, as they should be. The left's policies are consistent with the moral code of altruism/self sacrifice, which is the dominant morality in the country and this is why they keep winning.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-12-2015, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2015 11:07 AM by Ace.)
RE: No God, no morality
what would you do if it was proven that there is NO god ?

would you go and bad stuff if there is no god ?
if yes then you were never moral to begin with and were only being nice ismply to score brownie points with god

if your answer is no and would you continue to be a good person then you've just admitted that god has nothing to do with your morality

and if god is the source of all morality then how does one even know what god wants ?
and even if god did tell us what is good and bad then so what, why should I do what god tells me to do instead of using something standard of my choosing ?
the only way he can get anyone to care is by changing the positives and negatives of outcomes of our actions
what other purpose does heaven and hell serve besides another glorified carrot and stick, the idea that gods word alone decides what is good or bad rather than based on outcomes is ludacrous

this argument:
1. its equivocates morality with god when there is nothing about them to equivocate
2. it attempts to fill in a gap that scientists have already filled long ago
3. it argues in a circle
4. it contradicts itself internally
5. it uses the very principles (actions based on outcomes) it seeks to reject
6. it offers no reasons on why anyone should even care if its true

this argument is so self defeating thats its popularity can only be ascribed to pure pathological self inflicted delusion Facepalm

#6 is the most defining feature of the argument Facepalm
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02-12-2015, 11:20 AM
RE: No God, no morality
I don't agree that morality has anything to do with giving money to the poor or more needy. But I do agree that religion is not even slightly necessary for a person to be moral. (unless that person is a sociopath or something and needs some sort of "spell" over them to keep them from doing terrible things. Religion could, depending on the situation, be a tool to keep that person under control. Not the only tool, but a tool.)

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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02-12-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  what would you do if it was proven that there is NO god ?

would you go and bad stuff if there is no god ?
if yes then you were never moral to begin with and were only being nice simply to score brownie points with god

Nonsense. When I was religious, I believed humans had objective value based on the existence of a being that had the authority to create the laws of our universe.

It was not being nice to score 'brownie points.' It was the rationale way to behave in the universe based on my flawed understanding of it.

And my rational response when I recognized my understanding was flawed was to ditch the things that were dependent on the existence of God. The view that humans had objective value was one of them. And it had significant consequences as to how I viewed the world.

But to your point, I was a 'good person' by your standards before, and I am 'not a good person' by your standards now.

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02-12-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

We are much better off without morality. No coercion, no forcing people to conform to "norms" or "rights". Instead having respect for autonomy and diversity. Minding our own business and enjoying the interesting things that diversity brings.
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02-12-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

Nonono, don't you see? They STOLE their morality from Christianity and refuse to acknowledge the source. All that is good comes from God, after all, like unwanted pregnancy punishing women for being sexually active (or getting raped) and hijacked planes punishing America for gays and atheism.

So this highly moral, charitable impulse? Like all morality, this comes from the God of Abraham, of Jacob, and of Moses. ... you know, the Old Testament God.

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02-12-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 12:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

We are much better off without morality. No coercion, no forcing people to conform to "norms" or "rights". Instead having respect for autonomy and diversity. Minding our own business and enjoying the interesting things that diversity brings.

Why should we have respect for autonomy and diversity? Or mind our own business and enjoy interesting things. Seems like after dismissing the need for morality, you immediately launch into your own rules on how people should live.

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