No God, no morality
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02-12-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 01:15 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 12:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We are much better off without morality. No coercion, no forcing people to conform to "norms" or "rights". Instead having respect for autonomy and diversity. Minding our own business and enjoying the interesting things that diversity brings.

Why should we have respect for autonomy and diversity? Or mind our own business and enjoy interesting things. Seems like after dismissing the need for morality, you immediately launch into your own rules on how people should live.
I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do. I'm not your conscience, I'm not your parents, I'm not your life adviser. You are uniquely positioned to make the "best" decisions and actions for yourself.
I'm highlighting that without morality I have no interest in minding other people's business, I have no interest in controlling other people, telling them what they should or shouldn't do.
I'm also expressing my view of the world through my amoral lens. If I'm not minding other people's business then perhaps that could be perceived as "having respect for others autonomy" (a positive spin on my position rather than just stating that I am apathetic).
From my own personal opinion, diversity is interesting, it would be horribly bland and boring if there was just one culture, one type of music, one type of movie...
I find diversity interesting because I like to explore and discover. You don't have to like diversity, you don't have to explore or discover. I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do.
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02-12-2015, 03:19 PM
RE: No God, no morality
Humans were created in God's image. God is a moral being; therefore humans have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. In some the knowledge is suppressed; others still know right and wrong and even practice it but fail to give God the credit for it.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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02-12-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 03:19 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Humans were created in God's image. God is a moral being; therefore humans have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. In some the knowledge is suppressed; others still know right and wrong and even practice it but fail to give God the credit for it.

Yes, without the god of the bible we wouldn't know about smashing people's head with a rock if they work on the Sabbath. Or boiling a goat in it's mother's milk.

That inherent knowledge just comes from the inside naturally.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-12-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 03:19 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Humans were created in God's image. God is a moral being; therefore humans have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. In some the knowledge is suppressed; others still know right and wrong and even practice it but fail to give God the credit for it.

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Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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02-12-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 03:25 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 03:19 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Humans were created in God's image. God is a moral being; therefore humans have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. In some the knowledge is suppressed; others still know right and wrong and even practice it but fail to give God the credit for it.

Yes, without the god of the bible we wouldn't know about smashing people's head with a rock if they work on the Sabbath. Or boiling a goat in it's mother's milk.

That inherent knowledge just comes from the inside naturally.
We also wouldn't know that the proper response to conquering an enemy nation is to systematically slaughter the P.O.W.s, the old men, the women, the children, except for the young girls... those you 'give' to your soldiers.
Compared to that, executing someone for stupid reasons pale in comparison, and apparently the slaughter was the directly ordered by god. Good thing we have that as the source of morality.
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02-12-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 03:19 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Humans were created in God's image. God is a moral being; therefore humans have an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. In some the knowledge is suppressed; others still know right and wrong and even practice it but fail to give God the credit for it.

Humans were created by evolution. Absolute morality does not exist; therefore humans have evolved senses of fairness and empathy that give a survival advantage and you fail to see that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-12-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 11:33 AM)wallym Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  what would you do if it was proven that there is NO god ?

would you go and bad stuff if there is no god ?
if yes then you were never moral to begin with and were only being nice simply to score brownie points with god

Nonsense. When I was religious, I believed humans had objective value based on the existence of a being that had the authority to create the laws of our universe.

It was not being nice to score 'brownie points.' It was the rationale way to behave in the universe based on my flawed understanding of it.

And my rational response when I recognized my understanding was flawed was to ditch the things that were dependent on the existence of God. The view that humans had objective value was one of them. And it had significant consequences as to how I viewed the world.

But to your point, I was a 'good person' by your standards before, and I am 'not a good person' by your standards now.

it was to score brownie points

do you even understand how anything about how populations work ?

lets hypothetically take 2 populations separated by 10km with no contact with each other
group A doesn't like killing and eating babies
group B has no problem with killing and eating babies

group B will inevitably go extinct and all their traditions, beliefs and culture will go with them, group A won't die off because their still alive and breeding

whatever you do must ultimately result in your survival and reproductive success
whatever beliefs and practices your parents held and engaged in must ultimately leads to their survival and reproduction otherwise by definition you wouldn't be here to think about this, and whatever beliefs your folks had will be passed on to you, there is no other way for any knowledge, idea, practice or belief to last long

any action we engage in must increase our chances or survival and reproductive success otherwise you, for example under no circumstances would killing and eating babies improve and promote the long term survival of a group, any group that engages in this must inevitably go extinct
natural selection and populations wont work any other way

notice that there's nothing about this that requires a god
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03-12-2015, 08:15 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 05:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  Humans were created by evolution. Absolute morality does not exist; therefore humans have evolved senses of fairness and empathy that give a survival advantage and you fail to see that.

Agreed. Nietzsche taught me to devise my own morality. Which harms nobody.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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03-12-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 10:13 AM)mgoering Wrote:  At least two of American's top philanthropists, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, have pledged to give away billions of dollars in their lifetime for very humane causes -- and they are atheists!

Interesting. I thought morals were derived from religion. No God, no morality? What a joke. Laugh out load

They'll just say that "god" planted the idea in their head. It's an un-winable argument. You can't use "reason" to battle "unreasonable".
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03-12-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 08:15 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 05:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  Humans were created by evolution. Absolute morality does not exist; therefore humans have evolved senses of fairness and empathy that give a survival advantage and you fail to see that.

Agreed. Nietzsche taught me to devise my own morality. Which harms nobody.

Really, he taught me to despise mine. So I decided to mock it all away.

Altruism is a just cause, I'm sure the religious folks have dozens of explanations they can use to attempt to negate non-religious kindness, but not that any of them are good. Even a Samaritan can be a kind person though, remember that one? The Christians in these cases sometimes forget that guy.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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