No God, no morality
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03-12-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 07:00 AM)Ace Wrote:  any action we engage in must increase our chances or survival and reproductive success otherwise you, for example under no circumstances would killing and eating babies improve and promote the long term survival of a group, any group that engages in this must inevitably go extinct

I'd be careful of that assumption. Lions kill and eat their own babies from time to time, recycling their first litter. Thoughts on this are that it's done so the first litter can stretch things out for later litters to be born correctly. New males moving in also often eat the young of a defeated rival.
In terms of us, if we hard a couple dozen kids at a time, in litters, and there was nothing else slowing down our expansion, we'd probably need to eat some of our young (or otherwise prevent them from breeding) in order to not breed ourselves into extinction.
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03-12-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 07:00 AM)Ace Wrote:  Don't eat babies
I didn't follow how this was a response to my first post, but that's fine. I'll roll with it.

Fun fact: I don't care about the survival of the species. Now, if enough of you other folk started not caring, it might be an issue, because I do need it to last at least until I'm 70 or so. But what's great, is so many of you are still operating under the "Can't eat babies because then the other tribe will kill us!!!!" philosophy. But there are no other tribes. You can eat all the babies you want. It doesn't matter. So you guys make some babies, I eat a few, and then you panic and are like "OH NO!!! WE NEED TO MAKE MORE BABIES!!!

Humans evolved faster than our evolutionary impulses. You're working on outdated commands. We are not under threat of our population getting too small. In fact, we should all probably start eating some babies, and to some extent we have. Even those who haven't figured it out have some voice in the back of their head that saying "I probably don't need 7 kids."

And here's an uplifting thought I like to share with people about the importance of human existence:
If Earth exploded on Tuesday, who would care on Wednesday?

It's all in our heads. Humans, as a group, aren't important in reality. They are only important because back in the day, it was important for us to believe that they were to survive.

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03-12-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  what would you do if it was proven that there is NO god ?
if your answer is no and would you continue to be a good person then you've just admitted that god has nothing to do with your morality
Actually, with God bad person becomes good person. Good person becomes a better person. I became a better person than I was before.
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  and if god is the source of all morality then how does one even know what god wants ?
God didn't say that He is source of all morality. He just has His standards. And those who follow those standards can become like Gods.
We can know about His standards through the revelations given to the prophets He sends.
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  and even if god did tell us what is good and bad then so what, why should I do what god tells me to do instead of using something standard of my choosing ?
If you want to become like Gods then there is only one way: follow God's standards.

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03-12-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 06:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  what would you do if it was proven that there is NO god ?
if your answer is no and would you continue to be a good person then you've just admitted that god has nothing to do with your morality
Actually, with God bad person becomes good person. Good person becomes a better person. I became a better person than I was before.
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  and if god is the source of all morality then how does one even know what god wants ?
God didn't say that He is source of all morality. He just has His standards. And those who follow those standards can become like Gods.
We can know about His standards through the revelations given to the prophets He sends.
(02-12-2015 11:04 AM)Ace Wrote:  and even if god did tell us what is good and bad then so what, why should I do what god tells me to do instead of using something standard of my choosing ?
If you want to become like Gods then there is only one way: follow God's standards.

There are several passages of the biblical OT god saying he created all things such as all good/evil.

How do you know if you want to become like Gods you have to follow their standards. That's another thing contrary to OT teachings, which of course is the claim of eating the fruit would make humans like Gods, yet it's what was supposedly against God's standards.

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03-12-2015, 09:02 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 12:29 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 07:00 AM)Ace Wrote:  Don't eat babies
I didn't follow how this was a response to my first post, but that's fine. I'll roll with it.

Fun fact: I don't care about the survival of the species. Now, if enough of you other folk started not caring, it might be an issue, because I do need it to last at least until I'm 70 or so. But what's great, is so many of you are still operating under the "Can't eat babies because then the other tribe will kill us!!!!" philosophy. But there are no other tribes. You can eat all the babies you want. It doesn't matter. So you guys make some babies, I eat a few, and then you panic and are like "OH NO!!! WE NEED TO MAKE MORE BABIES!!!

Humans evolved faster than our evolutionary impulses. You're working on outdated commands. We are not under threat of our population getting too small. In fact, we should all probably start eating some babies, and to some extent we have. Even those who haven't figured it out have some voice in the back of their head that saying "I probably don't need 7 kids."

And here's an uplifting thought I like to share with people about the importance of human existence:
If Earth exploded on Tuesday, who would care on Wednesday?

It's all in our heads. Humans, as a group, aren't important in reality. They are only important because back in the day, it was important for us to believe that they were to survive.

firstly I said hypothetically
and secondly my point still stands

fun fact: if the entire human population went back to being hunter gatherers then this planet could at best support only 10 million people, so no groups now are more important than ever before

so your wrong yet again because human groups are what keep us alive even today
we live in groups to survive just like our ancestors did 1000s of years ago and that will never change

why do you think an economy exists ?
because one can't grow or make everything they need so people grow and produce those in large quantities then sell it to those that need it for money
people work to make money which they spend on getting necessities like food, water, shelter, safety etc
an economy exist simply to facilitate exchange of items ad value
and money exists solely to make that exchange easier

under this kind of social interdependence to survive people will act in ways that benefit the group if doing that will benefit them as well
seriously, if being nice to each other will result in others being nice to you then what reason could you possibly have for not being nice to others in the first place ?
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03-12-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 09:02 PM)Ace Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 12:29 PM)wallym Wrote:  I didn't follow how this was a response to my first post, but that's fine. I'll roll with it.

Fun fact: I don't care about the survival of the species. Now, if enough of you other folk started not caring, it might be an issue, because I do need it to last at least until I'm 70 or so. But what's great, is so many of you are still operating under the "Can't eat babies because then the other tribe will kill us!!!!" philosophy. But there are no other tribes. You can eat all the babies you want. It doesn't matter. So you guys make some babies, I eat a few, and then you panic and are like "OH NO!!! WE NEED TO MAKE MORE BABIES!!!

Humans evolved faster than our evolutionary impulses. You're working on outdated commands. We are not under threat of our population getting too small. In fact, we should all probably start eating some babies, and to some extent we have. Even those who haven't figured it out have some voice in the back of their head that saying "I probably don't need 7 kids."

And here's an uplifting thought I like to share with people about the importance of human existence:
If Earth exploded on Tuesday, who would care on Wednesday?

It's all in our heads. Humans, as a group, aren't important in reality. They are only important because back in the day, it was important for us to believe that they were to survive.

firstly I said hypothetically
and secondly my point still stands

fun fact: if the entire human population went back to being hunter gatherers then this planet could at best support only 10 million people, so no groups now are more important than ever before

so your wrong yet again because human groups are what keep us alive even today
we live in groups to survive just like our ancestors did 1000s of years ago and that will never change

why do you think an economy exists ?
because one can't grow or make everything they need so people grow and produce those in large quantities then sell it to those that need it for money
people work to make money which they spend on getting necessities like food, water, shelter, safety etc
an economy exist simply to facilitate exchange of items ad value
and money exists solely to make that exchange easier

under this kind of social interdependence to survive people will act in ways that benefit the group if doing that will benefit them as well
seriously, if being nice to each other will result in others being nice to you then what reason could you possibly have for not being nice to others in the first place ?


Just to quantify.

"Money, one of the earliest and most significant inventions of civilization, is essential to the development of trade. Without it there is only barter, a relationship between two people each of whom has something which the other wants."

From here.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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03-12-2015, 11:45 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 09:02 PM)Ace Wrote:  under this kind of social interdependence to survive people will act in ways that benefit the group if doing that will benefit them as well
seriously, if being nice to each other will result in others being nice to you then what reason could you possibly have for not being nice to others in the first place ?

Sure. If you do good things for the group that benefit you. Or treat other people nice, so they will treat you nice, that makes sense and it'd be dumb not to do them.

The tricky question is always why not do bad things for the group that benefit you. Or do good things for the group that doesn't benefit you. Or treat people nice when you get nothing in return? Etc...

You seem to have bought full on into the ant mentality. Your evolutionary impulses are running the ship. Maybe that's optimal for you. But it doesn't work for me.

My new take, now that I've shaken that religion nonsense that was telling me to hop right along side next to you and soldier on for team humanity, is that I'll let you go ahead and work on your big humanity stuff, and I'll do what I want.

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04-12-2015, 12:11 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 11:45 PM)wallym Wrote:  But it doesn't work for me.


I think you misunderstand what atheist means. Atheist simply means one does not believe in a deity. It has nothing to do with money, politics or any other such thing.

You appear to need a religious belief in order to remain moral. If I catch your meaning correctly.

I therefore wonder about your character. Is this a good and decent person if only a spiritual belief can control him? I would lean then toward, not.

Whether it works for you is not in dispute. What we are concerned with is what is true. What is the evidence for this or that?

Religionists are unable to provide rational, testable, scientific facts to support their arguments.

It rather seems to me that all morals are man made, both good and bad. It is man who wrote the books in ancient and ignorant times. Why modern people still believe these stories is amazing to myself and others.

Therefore arguing with an atheist about a moral issue being invented by an unproven deity is an exercise in pointlessness. Obviously, as there is no evidence for a god, it is a non argument to begin with.

Once you can prove a god exists, then your argument begins. Until then, there is no basis.

Are you able to do this?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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04-12-2015, 12:31 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 12:11 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 11:45 PM)wallym Wrote:  But it doesn't work for me.


I think you misunderstand what atheist means. Atheist simply means one does not believe in a deity. It has nothing to do with money, politics or any other such thing.

You appear to need a religious belief in order to remain moral. If I catch your meaning correctly.

I therefore wonder about your character. Is this a good and decent person if only a spiritual belief can control him? I would lean then toward, not.

Whether it works for you is not in dispute. What we are concerned with is what is true. What is the evidence for this or that?

Religionists are unable to provide rational, testable, scientific facts to support their arguments.

It rather seems to me that all morals are man made, both good and bad. It is man who wrote the books in ancient and ignorant times. Why modern people still believe these stories is amazing to myself and others.

Therefore arguing with an atheist about a moral issue being invented by an unproven deity is an exercise in pointlessness. Obviously, as there is no evidence for a god, it is a non argument to begin with.

Once you can prove a god exists, then your argument begins. Until then, there is no basis.

Are you able to do this?
I needed religion to provide a rational reason to behave morally. Once I recognized it was irrational, I obviously considered it no longer a rational reason.

Perhaps as a man of reason, you can you provide a rational scientific testable fact why I should behave 'good and decent' when it is not in my best interest?

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04-12-2015, 12:39 AM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 12:31 AM)wallym Wrote:  Perhaps as a man of reason, you can you provide a rational scientific testable fact why I should behave 'good and decent' when it is not in my best interest?

I just did, in another thread. Here it is,

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