No God, no morality
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04-12-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 08:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Wallym, ever read Plato's republic and the ring of gyges?

I have, although I don't remember what was in them. A cave or something.

And you absolutely nailed what I'm saying in your previous post.

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04-12-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: No God, no morality
Wallym,

Curious to hear your response to this vid.

I've posted it on this site before, and it gets a lot of criticism from some members.

Sorry to everyone else who is sick of talking about it. Smile



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04-12-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 12:52 PM)wallym Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 08:25 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Wallym, ever read Plato's republic and the ring of gyges?

I have, although I don't remember what was in them. A cave or something.

And you absolutely nailed what I'm saying in your previous post.

the republic is about the definition of justice. since I don't feel like re-reading the republic in order to give you a synopsis, I'm just going to copy and paste from wikipedia regarding the ring of gyges thought experiment.

The Ring of Gyges is a mythical magical artifact mentioned by the philosopher Plato in Book 2 of his Republic (2.359a–2.360d).[1] It granted its owner the power to become invisible at will. Through the story of the ring, Republic considers whether an intelligent person would be moral if he did not have to fear being caught and punished for doing injustices.

In Glaucon's recounting of the myth (which is clearly not based on historical fact), an unnamed ancestor of Gyges[4] was a shepherd in the service of the ruler of Lydia. After an earthquake, a cave was revealed in a mountainside where he was feeding his flock. Entering the cave, he discovered that it was in fact a tomb with a bronze horse containing a corpse, larger than that of a man, who wore a golden ring, which he pocketed. He discovered that the ring gave him the power to become invisible by adjusting it. He then arranged to be chosen as one of the messengers who reported to the king as to the status of the flocks. Arriving at the palace, he used his new power of invisibility to seduce the queen, and with her help he murdered the king, and became king of Lydia himself.

Glaucon posits:
Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with any one at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a god among men.
Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity, for wherever any one thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust.
For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing, will say that they are right. If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another's, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another's faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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04-12-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 01:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Wallym,

Curious to hear your response to this vid.

I've posted it on this site before, and it gets a lot of criticism from some members.

Sorry to everyone else who is sick of talking about it. Smile




very good video. I'm wondering whether virtue ethics or the social contract could be used as a response. I am currently pondering this.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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04-12-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 01:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Wallym,

Curious to hear your response to this vid.

I've posted it on this site before, and it gets a lot of criticism from some members.

Yeah, that is very well in line with my reasoning. Backstory wise, I was making that general argument when I was still a practicing christian. And when I dumped my belief in God, I found the rationale to be pretty much in line with my new perspective on the world as an atheist.

A fun thing I'm wrapping my head around now, is the idea that being rational also has no value. Thinking up some batshit insane ideas about aliens L.Ron Hubbard style and living according to that is no better or worse than being some ultra-rational nihilist.

One thing it's allowed me to do, is to pick and choose my battles in terms of fighting my impulse to think irrationally. I know my relationship with my kid is just an illusion created by years of evolution, but because I get such positive feedback from that illusion, coupled with the strength of the illusion, I steer into that skid so to speak.

And that's sort of what I'm looking at in terms of basing my decisions. Focusing on those strong biological responses, even if it means maybe accepting something I know is an illusion if I can. There are of course weaker illusions that I'd like to have kept hold of, but knowing they are illusions has removed the ability to get any positive feedback.

An example of a poorer illusion: I like the idea of everlasting life in heaven. But I can't take comfort in it, because the idea is so goofy, I couldn't possibly buy into it.

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04-12-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 02:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Glaucon posits:
Suppose now that th

I think with the ring, there is the possibility of people behaving justly due to the strong influence of evolution. As I was saying in the post before, if the illusion is strong enough, or you perhaps don't recognize it as an illusion, you can receive positive feedback from the action.

Tim Tebow, for example could be slaying the ladies, but the feedback he gets from his God delusion is enough that it may in fact trump the feedback he gets from tons of sexy times, making it the rational choice.

(Tim Tebow is a handsome christian quarterback who is waiting for marriage to have sex in case people are unaware)

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04-12-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There are several passages of the biblical OT god saying he created all things such as all good/evil.
I don't believe that there is such claim in the OT.
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How do you know if you want to become like Gods you have to follow their standards.
From the revelations that were given to God's prophets.
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's another thing contrary to OT teachings, which of course is the claim of eating the fruit would make humans like Gods, yet it's what was supposedly against God's standards.
No, God didn't set any moral standards before Adam and Eve partook of the fruit. Their eyes had to be opened first. Adam and Eve would never become like Gods if they didn't partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

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04-12-2015, 04:35 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 04:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There are several passages of the biblical OT god saying he created all things such as all good/evil.
I don't believe that there is such claim in the OT.
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How do you know if you want to become like Gods you have to follow their standards.
From the revelations that were given to God's prophets.
(03-12-2015 07:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's another thing contrary to OT teachings, which of course is the claim of eating the fruit would make humans like Gods, yet it's what was supposedly against God's standards.
No, God didn't set any moral standards before Adam and Eve partook of the fruit. Their eyes had to be opened first. Adam and Eve would never become like Gods if they didn't partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

Alla,

I have already become like Gods, and I just spoke TO God, and he said you're totally full of shit. Tongue He also said that everybody gets to become like Gods except Alla. Big Grin
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04-12-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 04:35 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Alla,
I have already become like Gods, and I just spoke TO God, and he said you're totally full of shit. Tongue He also said that everybody gets to become like Gods except Alla. Big Grin
Oh! You had personal revelation from God!Smile Personal revelations from God to other people are none of my business. Unless those people are prophets from God and sustained by me and by millions of LDS. Smile

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04-12-2015, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2015 06:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: No God, no morality
(04-12-2015 12:31 AM)wallym Wrote:  Perhaps as a man of reason, you can you provide a rational scientific testable fact why I should behave 'good and decent' when it is not in my best interest?

I am amoral and areligious but I am not without ethics. My behavior is driven by Stark's Prime Directive "Try not to be a dick, Bob." Now if you can provide a rational, scientifically testable reason why it's in Bob's best interest to be a dick I'm all ears.

#sigh
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