No Good Without Evil? Really...?
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17-12-2014, 01:24 PM
Lightbulb No Good Without Evil? Really...?
Answer me this, please (whomever wishes to do so):
If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

Agnostic: 1985 - 1990 (age: 0 - 5)
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Baptist: 2008 - 2009 (22, a few short months)
Atheist: 2009 - Now... (22 - 31 and counting!)
Wow, that Christianity phase sure lasted a while, didn't it? But don't worry, I found my way. Atheism!
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17-12-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  Answer me this, please (whomever wishes to do so):
If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

According to Christian myth, heaven exists, so there can be a place where there is only good without evil.

Since our world does not possess this attribute:

1. God is evil.
2. The Christian god is not the real god.
3. God doesn't exist.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-12-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
What makes this statement true is a matter of semantics. The fact that good is defined based on its comparison to its perceived opposite. Things happen, and we choose to label them.

There can also be no cold without hot, because if it were always hot we either would not have felt the necessity to create the word cold, or would have used cold to define the lower levels of hot. Neither has anything to do with the nature of the world or the existence of a God, or how we should judge that God. It's just words we created due to our need to communicate.

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17-12-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
Hi Rebecca. Welcome.

Very perceptive, IMO. In a way it goes to Euthyphro's Dilemma, (famous Greek philosophy question .. if you don't know it). you can Google that.

But I totally agree, and it's something no theist will address. It hints of a "higher order" (in Reality) in which a god is "embedded"). If a god is described as "perfect" or and has ANY other "definition" for that matter, then as long as that applies or applied, (already) Reality was larger than the god in question, and it couldn't have created the very Reality by with itself is defined. If it's "good", then what is "not good" was also concurrently always there, and remains unexplained. So yeah. Evil had to exist always if an eternal "good" god always existed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-12-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

Very nice. I made a thread similar to this a while ago. Basically, all of the stock apologetics that deal with evil or suffering in light of an all good god fall if you take heaven into consideration.

The apologetics then tend to morph into something that either dilutes heaven into being something lesser and/or insists that we need to either be "tested" on earth or somehow have to "mature" before we can get to heaven. No word as to why a god who can see the future needs to test us, or why a god who can create fully intelligent adults needs to put us through a maturing process.
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17-12-2014, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 02:25 PM by tear151.)
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  Answer me this, please (whomever wishes to do so):
If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

It seems to me more that a concept of good requires people to recognise the existence of it's antipode, evil, without people having a conception of both, the term good doesn't mean anything, because then everything would be good. For example imagine if everything in the world was red, the word colour wouldn't mean anything anymore, because there would just be redness.

In a lot of ways just by claiming that omnibenevolent is a meaningful quality something can have, it seems to imply there is an evil, for it to better than. In many ways and omnipotent omnibenevolent being is impossible in principle by the colloquial understanding of what good actually is, if there is no evil... then what does good describe? Thus omnibenevolence isn't a thing, if evil does exist, then how is this being that could stop said evil omnibenevolent?

"A witty quote means nothing"
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17-12-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 02:20 PM)tear151 Wrote:  In a lot of ways just by claiming that omnibenevolent is a meaningful quality something can have, it seems to imply there is an evil, for it to better than. In many ways and omnipotent omnibenevolent being is impossible in principle by the colloquial understanding of what good actually is, if there is no evil... then what does good describe? Thus omnibenevolence isn't a thing, if evil does exist, then how is this being that could stop said evil omnipotent?

I agree that to have a concept of good, or of benevolence, that needs to be contrasted with something that differs but I'm not clear that it requires an opposite. Vanilla ice cream is good; Rocky Road is better. I don't need 'bad' to be able to have a concept of 'good' since I can distinguish between levels of 'good'.

Even if there was no way to discriminate so that people had no concept of good would that also apply from a god's perspective? An omnipotent, omnibenevolent entity could understand the concepts of good and evil and choose to create a world in which his creation knew only good. They might not have the concept but the god would still be benevolent.

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17-12-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

I don't know about no good without evil. But I would say there can be no concept of evil without good. Because evil is just the absence of good in a person. It's just our way of communicating a human failing, an inhumanity, etc...
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17-12-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 02:34 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 02:20 PM)tear151 Wrote:  In a lot of ways just by claiming that omnibenevolent is a meaningful quality something can have, it seems to imply there is an evil, for it to better than. In many ways and omnipotent omnibenevolent being is impossible in principle by the colloquial understanding of what good actually is, if there is no evil... then what does good describe? Thus omnibenevolence isn't a thing, if evil does exist, then how is this being that could stop said evil omnipotent?

I agree that to have a concept of good, or of benevolence, that needs to be contrasted with something that differs but I'm not clear that it requires an opposite. Vanilla ice cream is good; Rocky Road is better. I don't need 'bad' to be able to have a concept of 'good' since I can distinguish between levels of 'good'.

Even if there was no way to discriminate so that people had no concept of good would that also apply from a god's perspective? An omnipotent, omnibenevolent entity could understand the concepts of good and evil and choose to create a world in which his creation knew only good. They might not have the concept but the god would still be benevolent.

Vanilla ice cream is good, rocky road is better, but by recognising one thing as better than another, you must have an idea of what the lack of "goodness" is, or badness. Though rating your subjective experiences and metaphysical truths are a bit different.

If the God made beings who only knew good, what would the word good even mean? They would never experienced anything BUT good. Goodness would just be a given to them, something that just is, if everything is good, then the good god would be indistinguishable from anything else so the term couldn't really form like that.

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17-12-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know about no good without evil. But I would say there can be no concept of evil without good. Because evil is just the absence of good in a person. It's just our way of communicating a human failing, an inhumanity, etc...

Still up to your redefinitions schtick, I see. I know fundies need the world in simplistic black/white terms, but no neutral ?
e·vil
/ˈēvəl/
adjective
adjective: evil
1.
profoundly immoral and malevolent.
"his evil deeds"
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; More
malevolent, sinister, demonic, devilish, diabolical, fiendish, dark;

monstrous, shocking, despicable, atrocious, heinous, odious, contemptible,
horrible, execrable;
informallowdown, dirty
"an evil deed"
antonyms: good, virtuous
•(of a force or spirit) embodying or associated with the forces of the devil.
"we have been driven out of the house by this evil spirit"
•harmful or tending to harm.
"the evil effects of high taxes"
synonyms: cruel, mischievous, pernicious, malignant, malign, baleful, vicious; More
destructive, harmful, hurtful, injurious, detrimental, deleterious, inimical, bad, ruinous
"an evil spirit"
antonyms: good, beneficial
•(of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.
"a bathroom with an evil smell"
synonyms: unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty, horrible, foul, disgusting, filthy, vile, noxious
"an evil smell"
antonyms: pleasant
noun
noun: evil
1. profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
"the world is stalked by relentless evil"
synonyms: wickedness, bad, badness, wrongdoing, sin, ill, immorality, vice, iniquity, degeneracy, corruption, depravity, villainy, nefariousness, malevolence;

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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