No Good Without Evil? Really...?
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17-12-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  Answer me this, please (whomever wishes to do so):
If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

First, there can be good without evil. This was the state in Heaven before Lucifer was created.

Second, it's hard to understand good without evil or vice versa. Imagine a place where there is only one or the other, and you are a citizen of that place trying to understand the other concept. It's possible, but rather difficult.

Third, there can be a perfect Heaven or Hell in your syllogism since the other also exists simultaneously.

Fourth, evil is possible under a good and benevolent ruler if that ruler allows free will. I have met some atheists who believe in free will but I suspect that most do not believe in free will because it demands moral accountability. Not ethics, moral accountability. In my scenario for example, I can ask why a good God will allow an atheist to curse and mock me and the Bible at this forum. "How can a good God allow bad things to be said about His holy and perfect Bible on His watch?" could have also been in your post. One alternative: There is no God. Another possibility: God gives people free will but will hold them accountable for their moral choices.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-12-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
I’ve always felt that any and every answer to this question is nothing more than the theist making excuses in order to justify the existence of their deity of choice. Certain types of evil might be reasonable like say theft or murder in order to contrast to good or allow free will, but the unnecessary evil such as disease, cancer or genetic disorders that afflict millions of children in the world is grossly unacceptable if a being such as “God” exists, assuming this being is actually good and cares one bit about any of us here on Earth. I find that theists usually use doublethink or delusional rationalization when considering the problem of evil.

To quote Steven Winberg, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” If the very idea of a god can be used to inspire those who are good to willingly do and accept that which is evil, why is the idea of a god viewed as a good thing?
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17-12-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know about no good without evil. But I would say there can be no concept of evil without good. Because evil is just the absence of good in a person. It's just our way of communicating a human failing, an inhumanity, etc...

Still up to your redefinitions schtick, I see. I know fundies need the world in simplistic black/white terms, but no neutral ?
e·vil
/ˈēvəl/
adjective
adjective: evil
1.
profoundly immoral and malevolent.
"his evil deeds"
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; More
malevolent, sinister, demonic, devilish, diabolical, fiendish, dark;

monstrous, shocking, despicable, atrocious, heinous, odious, contemptible,
horrible, execrable;
informallowdown, dirty
"an evil deed"
antonyms: good, virtuous
•(of a force or spirit) embodying or associated with the forces of the devil.
"we have been driven out of the house by this evil spirit"
•harmful or tending to harm.
"the evil effects of high taxes"
synonyms: cruel, mischievous, pernicious, malignant, malign, baleful, vicious; More
destructive, harmful, hurtful, injurious, detrimental, deleterious, inimical, bad, ruinous
"an evil spirit"
antonyms: good, beneficial
•(of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.
"a bathroom with an evil smell"
synonyms: unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty, horrible, foul, disgusting, filthy, vile, noxious
"an evil smell"
antonyms: pleasant
noun
noun: evil
1. profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
"the world is stalked by relentless evil"
synonyms: wickedness, bad, badness, wrongdoing, sin, ill, immorality, vice, iniquity, degeneracy, corruption, depravity, villainy, nefariousness, malevolence;

"And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good...." - Augustine
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17-12-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One alternative: There is no God.

[Image: ad8fff5ab772606c2a087926fd740d2725a951d4...d58cdc.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-12-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
No contrast tends to be boring.
A heaven with no contrast......BORING!
No challenges, an arbitrary fait accompli!
Nirvana! No pleasure no pain. ...BORING!

Must be some other system..........................Yes
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17-12-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:30 PM)SevenPatch Wrote:  I’ve always felt that any and every answer to this question is nothing more than the theist making excuses in order to justify the existence of their deity of choice. Certain types of evil might be reasonable like say theft or murder in order to contrast to good or allow free will, but the unnecessary evil such as disease, cancer or genetic disorders that afflict millions of children in the world is grossly unacceptable if a being such as “God” exists, assuming this being is actually good and cares one bit about any of us here on Earth. I find that theists usually use doublethink or delusional rationalization when considering the problem of evil.

To quote Steven Winberg, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” If the very idea of a god can be used to inspire those who are good to willingly do and accept that which is evil, why is the idea of a god viewed as a good thing?

There is no good and there is no evil there is only the actions or results of the enlightened and the actions or results of the ignorant. You never hear anyone say "OMG did you see all those people die in that earthquake? How evil that was!" Because good and evil are man made concepts therefor they only exist in our minds.
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17-12-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Vanilla ice cream is good, rocky road is better, but by recognising one thing as better than another, you must have an idea of what the lack of "goodness" is, or badness.

I can imagine a case where all things are good but some things are better than others. I would not need to understand 'bad' to understand a scale of 'good'.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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17-12-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 05:12 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Vanilla ice cream is good, rocky road is better, but by recognising one thing as better than another, you must have an idea of what the lack of "goodness" is, or badness.

I can imagine a case where all things are good but some things are better than others. I would not need to understand 'bad' to understand a scale of 'good'.

This is exactly what I wanted to say.
I don't need to experience torture to be able to feel the warmth and tenderness when someone holds my hand or gives me a loving kiss.

Its like saying you need red in order for you to experience blue. You don't. My eyes can perceive blue all by themselves. I don't need something else to exist in order for me to appreciate that which is in front of me.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-12-2014, 08:12 AM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 10:16 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 05:12 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I can imagine a case where all things are good but some things are better than others. I would not need to understand 'bad' to understand a scale of 'good'.

This is exactly what I wanted to say.
I don't need to experience torture to be able to feel the warmth and tenderness when someone holds my hand or gives me a loving kiss.

Its like saying you need red in order for you to experience blue. You don't. My eyes can perceive blue all by themselves. I don't need something else to exist in order for me to appreciate that which is in front of me.

Why can't god reveal what evil and bad is in a dream, so we wake up with an experience in it, but it doesn't occur in reality or why couldn't god have invented the movie projector thousands of years ago and show us movies on how bad is bad?

Why can we come up with better methods to instruct human beings than a bronze-age god created by bronze-age savages? Laugh out load

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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18-12-2014, 10:45 AM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
Hi Rebecca, welcome to the forum. Smile

(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good?

I think, conceptually or logically, this is possible by good and evil existing in different locations. As such, heaven could be 100% good while evil exists outside heaven. That said, I don't think the concept of heaven being 100% good fits with some other religious ideas like free will. If people have free will in heaven, then what's stopping sin from occurring there? Or, if free will is taken away, that in itself could be considered tarnishing the "good". There is also the matter of how Lucifer became evil in the first place in a heaven that is all good.


(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

I agree with you 100% here. It makes no sense. And the excuse "there can be no good without evil" doesn't explain it. If there was no evil, we might not be aware of good because it would be all there is. However, it would still exist just the same. There would be no need to know that it's "good" or to give it a name or to know of an opposite. And certainly any god who is supposed to be "perfect love", omnipotent, and omniscient would not allow evil to exist. Apologists make all kinds of excuses to justify how that statement is inaccurate, but excuses is all they are.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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