No Good Without Evil? Really...?
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18-12-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  First, there can be good without evil. This was the state in Heaven before Lucifer was created.

So how did Lucifer turn to evil then if it didn't exist? Consider

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Second, it's hard to understand good without evil or vice versa.

Why would we need to?

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Third, there can be a perfect Heaven or Hell in your syllogism since the other also exists simultaneously.

Amazing, we actually agree on something. Thumbsup

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Fourth, evil is possible under a good and benevolent ruler if that ruler allows free will.

You say that as though free will is a good thing. If evil comes only with free will, then it seems to me that it would be far better for a god to grant limited free will - that is free will to choose our actions, but the choices would be limited to only actions that are in the realm of "good".

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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18-12-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
This whole debate is like saying you can't have light without sound.

Each can exist, but the existence of one is not dependent on the existence of the other.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-12-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:30 PM)SevenPatch Wrote:  I’ve always felt that any and every answer to this question is nothing more than the theist making excuses in order to justify the existence of their deity of choice. Certain types of evil might be reasonable like say theft or murder in order to contrast to good or allow free will, but the unnecessary evil such as disease, cancer or genetic disorders that afflict millions of children in the world is grossly unacceptable if a being such as “God” exists, assuming this being is actually good and cares one bit about any of us here on Earth. I find that theists usually use doublethink or delusional rationalization when considering the problem of evil.

To quote Steven Winberg, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” If the very idea of a god can be used to inspire those who are good to willingly do and accept that which is evil, why is the idea of a god viewed as a good thing?

Yes, but you added the term "unnecessary" for sufferings you think are inappropriate.

Also, the same applies for the religious as the non-religious. It's not just that a god idea can be used for evil but many sins and evils can be adopted in the name of godlessness, also.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-12-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(18-12-2014 10:57 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  First, there can be good without evil. This was the state in Heaven before Lucifer was created.

So how did Lucifer turn to evil then if it didn't exist? Consider

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Second, it's hard to understand good without evil or vice versa.

Why would we need to?

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Third, there can be a perfect Heaven or Hell in your syllogism since the other also exists simultaneously.

Amazing, we actually agree on something. Thumbsup

(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Fourth, evil is possible under a good and benevolent ruler if that ruler allows free will.

You say that as though free will is a good thing. If evil comes only with free will, then it seems to me that it would be far better for a god to grant limited free will - that is free will to choose our actions, but the choices would be limited to only actions that are in the realm of "good".

1. I said the state in Heaven. I didn't say God lacked the imagination or foresight to know that evil would exist after He gave His creatures free will.

2. Why would need to what? Understand good and evil? We need to understand it to be judged.

3. Thanks, I appreciate that!

4. I hear what you are saying but neither of us want limited free will to forcibly create good actions in any realm. For example, if you are seeking love, you would rather have someone choose you in love rather than give them Love Potion #9. Free will demands love and vice versa.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-12-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(22-12-2014 01:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. I said the state in Heaven. I didn't say God lacked the imagination or foresight to know that evil would exist after He gave His creatures free will.

It just would exist? No, if it didn't already exist, then your god would have had to create it.

(22-12-2014 01:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Why would need to what? Understand good and evil? We need to understand it to be judged.

That was why would we need to be able to understand good and evil? If there was no evil, then good would be all there is and there would be no need to understand it. It would just be.

(22-12-2014 01:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  4. I hear what you are saying but neither of us want limited free will to forcibly create good actions in any realm. For example, if you are seeking love, you would rather have someone choose you in love rather than give them Love Potion #9. Free will demands love and vice versa.

Forcibly? Force implies a lack of free will, but the only limitation (beyond the same physical limitations that we already have) would be there couldn't be any evil or sin. This would not be a bad thing because we wouldn't know anything about it. Your love example is wrong. There would still be love and lack of love (at least of the couples type). There would still be choosing partners. There would even still be "bad" - as in things that don't go quite your way - just not evil.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-12-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 01:24 PM)Rebecca Ripple Wrote:  Answer me this, please (whomever wishes to do so):
If there can be "no good without evil," then how can God or heaven be perfect and 100% good? Alternatively, if there can be good without evil, why would any creator of anything simply allow evil, natural disasters that kill thousands or more, and fear-based/hatred-based atrocities to happen on his or her watch?

What do you all think of this? Do you have anything to add? Or do you want to volunteer an answer for this question? I'm eager to hear what any of you have to say, but please be as patient and respectful to each other as you'd want me to be to you, which of course, I will. Thanks!

There is no good or evil.

Truth seeker.
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22-12-2014, 11:26 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 04:24 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  "And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good...." - Augustine

Except, of course, disease is material, a 'substance' (or, rather, many). Disease is the introduction of a foreign substance to the body which proceeds to attack it.

For that matter, why accept that evil is 'merely' the absence of good? Why not define good as 'merely' the absence of evil? Probably because we want good to have some sort of discrete existence and evil to be a lack of it. It fits with other things we like, such as warmth and light. The problem is, with light and heat we can define an absence because there is some absolute bottom. No light (no photons) is absolute darkness. No heat (no atomic vibration) is absolute cold. Good is unquantifiable and so lacks any absolute to be measured against. Which is why all moral systems are ultimately subjective, including religious ones.
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23-12-2014, 11:36 PM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  First, there can be good without evil. This was the state in Heaven before Lucifer was created.

Guess what? Assertions aren't evidence.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Second, it's hard to understand good without evil or vice versa. Imagine a place where there is only one or the other, and you are a citizen of that place trying to understand the other concept. It's possible, but rather difficult.

Doesn't matter. The true nature of reality might be eleven dimensions, even if we are only consciously aware of experiencing four of them. The nature of reality doesn't depend on our nascent understanding. But if heaven does exist, then that means there exists a place objectively less evil and full of suffering than this reality. So even granting your baseless assumptions, your god is still an incredibly malicious and capricious cosmic asshole.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Third, there can be a perfect Heaven or Hell in your syllogism since the other also exists simultaneously.

Define 'perfect' in this context. It's alright, we'll wait. Drinking Beverage


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Fourth, evil is possible under a good and benevolent ruler if that ruler allows free will.

Great. Now you just have to substantiate the actual existence of freewill, rather than the illusion of it.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have met some atheists who believe in free will but I suspect that most do not believe in free will because it demands moral accountability.

No, but rather it goes against almost everything we know (and can show) about how the universe works.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not ethics, moral accountability.

Moral accountability? From Christianity? Are you this stupid all of the fucking time, or are you trying extra hard just for our benefit?

Where does 'moral accountability' enter into the Christian worldview? Is it the universe your God (supposedly) made and allowed evil and sin into, when he clearly had the capability of making a sin/evil free version instead (unless you want to argue that Heaven doesn't have 'freewill')? Was it cursing the descendants of Adam for crimes they didn't commit? Was it sending himself down to live and eventually get himself tortured and killed in order the bypass the rules he himself had created?

Moral accountability doesn't exist in a system with substitutionary atonement and unlimited forgiveness from imaginary friends.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In my scenario for example, I can ask why a good God will allow an atheist to curse and mock me and the Bible at this forum. "How can a good God allow bad things to be said about His holy and perfect Bible on His watch?" could have also been in your post.

Because you're a pussy, and thought crimes don't count you thin skinned fuktard.

Although one has to wonder why your god and his believers are so easily butt-hurt? If you really do have the truth, why care what other people say? What could mere words do to harm the all-powerful creator of the universe and his true disciples? The fact that 'blasphemy' is an almost universal religious crime says far more about the frailties of it's all too human origins.


(17-12-2014 03:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One alternative: There is no God. Another possibility: God gives people free will but will hold them accountable for their moral choices.

Option 1: There is no God.
-Conforms with the evidence, nothing needs to be believed on insufficient evidence.

Option 2: There is a God, and he's an asshole.
-Requires faith to believe, and lacks any evidence in support of it. Even granting it's massive assumptions, it posits an all-powerful god that could have created a sin-free universe, but didn't (so he has ultimate responsibility for the origin of all sin). Who created creatures in order to test them, but didn't make the testing criteria clear to overwhelming majority of them throughout time (universal uniform divine revelation to every human being is possible with an all-powerful deity, but as yet has never happened). Who doesn't even need to test, because he is all-knowing and can ascertain a creatures' nature (a nature he created) instantly without making it jump through hoops. All assumptions about the nature of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence) cannot all be true at the same time.

See Also: Epicurus.

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Come the fuck on Q, this shit is fucking bush league... Drinking Beverage

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24-12-2014, 01:04 AM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
I guess it depends on what revelation of God you're going to look at. You can't reconcile theodicy (which is the question of God's goodness with the apparent evil in the world.) using a classic Judeo-Christian concept of God.

If, on the other hand, you choose the revelation of God that Jesus presented, then God picks favorites and destroys those who do not make the grade (by putting their faith in His Son). He wants glory and will create people to suffer simply for His glory to be revealed. He will throw people into various types of hell for not being one of the elect, and He is definitely a being that should be feared. All that, and he had no problem having Jesus crucified in order to make His point. God, as Jesus presents Him, uses suffering all the time for all kinds of reasons.

And if you think about it, this only makes sense. A god that is all-loving, all-indulgent, and should use his omnipotence to create bliss and happiness, is a god that is manipulated by his creation. A real God, a God that is the First Substance, Prime Mover, Creator of all that exists, would not be like that. He'd be like Jesus describes.

And you might say, "Well, then; I'll never believe in that God!" Fine. You're just one more of the billions he puts in hell--for the pleasure He gets from watching you in hell regretting your choice to reject Him.

You might say, "I would never worship such a immoral tyrant!" But you would if He wanted you to, because He's the creator of your mind. In other words, you may think you're choosing to disbelieve, but in reality, He's not choosing to let you believe. And so you will be just another soul in hell, roasting for his viewing pleasure.

You think you can flip god off, give him the finger like you would a politician or a boss at work. You think you have rights. You think you have some standing as a human being, but God kills every human being He ever creates in the womb. He lets children starve to death. He lets sharks attack people in the ocean. And you ought to see what insects do to each other.

My point is, you have no ability to stand up to God. Even if you are thinking and feeling the injustice of it all, it's not like it's you against other humans. God is allowing your mind to think the way you do. If He isn't, if He can't, then He is not God. You vs. God is an absurdity. It's illogical. It's like the image in a painting trying to exercise rights or morality over the artist. It doesn't work that way.

God made Satan. God allows Satan to do horrible things on the earth. The writer of the book of Job was fully aware of this. Jesus knew it. And people used to fear God. It's only in modern times, as the church began to loose influence in society, that the idea of a kinder, gentler God emerged. But that's a lie. It's not even the same God as Jesus described.

All good and all bad come from God. When you learn to fear God, then you will be on your way to a relationship with God. A child fears its father. How much more should we fear God?
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24-12-2014, 01:10 AM
RE: No Good Without Evil? Really...?
(24-12-2014 01:04 AM)Gordon Wrote:  And you might say, "Well, then; I'll never believe in that God!" Fine. You're just one more of the billions he puts in hell--for the pleasure He gets from watching you in hell regretting your choice to reject Him.
Belief isn't some switch you can turn on or off. It's not some benefit we withhold from God because we don't like him. Show us the evidence, we will believe God exists. Won't worship though - no point.

Quote:You might say, "I would never worship such a immoral tyrant!" But you would if He wanted you to, because He's the creator of your mind. In other words, you may think you're choosing to disbelieve, but in reality, He's not choosing to let you believe. And so you will be just another soul in hell, roasting for his viewing pleasure.
So if that's the case why are you bothering to inform us of this? And why do you religious types always get rather excited about how people who laugh at you are gonna buuuuuuuuuurn? Boring person.

Quote:All good and all bad come from God. When you learn to fear God, then you will be on your way to a relationship with God. A child fears its father. How much more should we fear God?
I dunno what the fuck kinda Dad you had but fear isn't what a kid should feel towards parents, even if a lot of parents are shitty and *do* make their kids fear them.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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