No. Just no Gabe.
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25-04-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(25-04-2015 08:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I like Patreon[1] as a model for funding content creation work, which is to say I like Day[9]'s model that Patreon resembles[2]. Day[9]'s model is:
- The content is free. No ifs. No buts. It's free and it will stay free forever.
- If you like you can pay a small monthly subscription and you get a few basic perks like a "contributor" badge on a forum or access to some live events
- No one is allowed to feel bad or make you feel bad for not contributing. It's a totally voluntary thing. It's positive if you do, but there a no negative connotations if you don't.

Patreon has exploded in forums such as YouTube, so much so that YouTube have brought out a competing subscription service.

I think this pay-what-you-want-for-free-content model is going to be an exponentially expanding business model for the next few years at least, and I don't see why it couldn't extend into modding or other activities. Let's clarify the model from a consumer perspective:
1. You set aside an amount of money you think is reasonable per month, say the cost of a Pay TV subscription or the cost of a hamburger each week.
2. You divide up that money between artists whose work just kills it and who you want to see more from
3. Everyone benefits, even those who can't afford to set aside hamburger money.
4. Over time a legacy of excellent free content is built up, not locked up by complex copyright and licensing terms but free and available to benefit the human race.

[1] https://www.patreon.com/
[2] http://day9.tv/tipjar/


Agreed, I think Patreon is a far better system, especially for a prolific and continuous content creators. Some of my favorite web-comic authors (Jeph Jaques of Questionable Content, Jackie Wohlenhaus of Between Failures) and YouTube personalities (Steve Shives, AronRa) either make a living or supplement their income this way. But I can also see the value of people looking to monetize more traditional pieces of large, one-off content; such as the aforementioned Skyrim mod Falskaar, which is basically a 1-man made expansion pack for the game that took 2+ years to complete.

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02-05-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
The gamer self-hate coming off of the TTAforum's local SJW's is mind boggling.

I find it amazing that people otherwise in favor of market regulation to make sure everyone gets a fair deal go full libertarian "let the market police itself" as soon as they see a chance to hurt gamers. Of course, most of them aren't even thinking of this, rather they just read that Polygon supports it so they just jump on board.

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02-05-2015, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2015 10:35 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(02-05-2015 10:12 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  The gamer self-hate coming off of the TTAforum's local SJW's is mind boggling.

I find it amazing that people otherwise in favor of market regulation to make sure everyone gets a fair deal go full libertarian "let the market police itself" as soon as they see a chance to hurt gamers. Of course, most of them aren't even thinking of this, rather they just read that Polygon supports it so they just jump on board.


Wow, you really are a blind, hateful, stupid little fuck.


I support content creators being compensated for their work, because I think the line of demarcation between professional developer and mod creator is superfluous and utterly meaningless when they're doing the exact same work.


I do however take plenty if issue with Valve's implementation of their pay-for-mods workshop precisely because it was so laissez faire and full of libertarian bullshitery. I don't have a problem with people wanting to spend their money on a $3 sword, it's not for me and I think it's not worth my money, but more power to you if you want to spend your money on that. My problem was with the lack of quality control, the lack of curation, the lopsided profit split, with their ham-fisted attempt to overlay this on top of a years old modding community.


It's an interesting idea, it was just implemented horribly and with the wrong game. If they can get in on the ground floor of a new title, maybe they can make it work. I don't fucking care what Polygon has to say about it, I don't even read their site, and I'm more than capable of forming my own informed opinions.


You know what an informed opinion is, right? Of fucking course you don't, who am I kidding? Rolleyes


If you're really concerned about 'anti-gamer' practices, go rally against pre-order culture and the bullshit that fosters in the game's industry.


Oh, by the way, how is that fascism going for you?

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02-05-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(02-05-2015 10:12 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  The gamer self-hate coming off of the TTAforum's local SJW's is mind boggling.

I find it amazing that people otherwise in favor of market regulation to make sure everyone gets a fair deal go full libertarian "let the market police itself" as soon as they see a chance to hurt gamers. Of course, most of them aren't even thinking of this, rather they just read that Polygon supports it so they just jump on board.

I assume you can prove that whichever side you disagree with just decided to agree with Polygon. Otherwise saying something like that would be stupid.

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02-05-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
As a mod developer myself (sound designer for Dawn of the Reapers and Skywind), I have to say that there are certainly pieces of content that deserve funding and compensation for their work. Skywind has created all of its assets from scratch: soundtrack, models, textures, writing, voice acting, sound effects, scripting, etc. It is essentially a new game project on the Creation Engine. The same can be said for the Dawn of the Reapers. These "mods" are essentially brand new games on someone else's engine.

It makes business sense to me for a developer to want a slice of that pie, but the way modders are getting shafted with this deal -- and the entire system as a whole -- is not the way to go. I agree with previous posts by DLJ and EvolutionKills that the Patreon method is the most fair to the modder. However, with a terrible 3-way split in favor of Bethesda for this business model, it is absolutely unfair. The modder is the one doing the work and prolonging the life of these games. These mods generate free revenue as it is by attracting new customers. Steam's mod sale system promotes unregulated chaos. No copyright measures were taken to ensure that modders cannot steal from one another, use assets from other forms of media, or revenue compensation for other content producers associated with the project. There was no quality assurance team either and, instead, told individuals to contact mod developers to handle conflicting scripts and other game issues. Not only that, but for a company that claims to understand the modding community and attempts to support that notion by reminding consumers that their own games were essentially mods, Valve seems to have completely misunderstood the art of modding as a whole. Most modders would love to generate revenue, but not at the expense of their free product. Donation or Patreon-esque systems are far more logical, and friendly to those who matter, than forcing consumers to purchase fan-made content.

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02-05-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
It seems to me that if one doesn't like the compensation, then one can simply choose not to do mods.

What am I missing? Consider

I turn down consulting gigs where the compensation doesn't jibe with the effort and required expertise.

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02-05-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(02-05-2015 08:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  It seems to me that if one doesn't like the compensation, then one can simply choose not to do mods.

What am I missing? Consider

I turn down consulting gigs where the compensation doesn't jibe with the effort and required expertise.

What if someone took your code and without compensating you sold them?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-05-2015, 09:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2015 08:37 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(02-05-2015 08:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  It seems to me that if one doesn't like the compensation, then one can simply choose not to do mods.

What am I missing? Consider

I turn down consulting gigs where the compensation doesn't jibe with the effort and required expertise.

Mods have traditionally been free for the end user because they have been pro bono projects by their creators, most often done by amateurs in their spare time. Some developers and game series have been especially mod friendly, with the developers releasing SDK's with the game and putting systems into place to facilitate the use of mods; and one of these games is Bethesda Softworks 'The Elders Scrolls' series, of which their last installment was Skyrim.

Now Skyrim was integrated with Steamworks, which is Valve's proprietary DRM system, and it means that all legal installations of Skyrim have to go through Valve's proprietary game client Steam. Now Steam is the market leader in digital distribution of games on the PC platform, having cornered the lion's share of the market. In addition to being a platform to sell and download games, they also offer community and streaming services, and other features that make it worthwhile to use their service over others or just pirating the game; Valve does understand that software piracy is a service issue.

One of the services they offered, with a select few games, is the Steam Workshop. If a game is integrated with this feature, it allows mod makers to upload their creations to the Workshop (i.e. Valve's servers), where they can be seen, downloaded, commented, and voted on. Skyrim had this integrated almost from the start, allowing for a relatively easy modding experience for newcomers. Now Skyrim came out back in 2011, so the mod community for this game has been alive and well for years.

Now Valve has been kicking around the idea for quite some time to develop a system to allow mod creators to monetize their creations and allow both Steam and the original developers to get a cut. The game they decided to launch this feature with wasn't Skyrim, they had already done something similar for custom item for other games like Valve's own Team Fortress 2, DOTA2, and Counter Strike: Global Offensive (yes, Valve is a game developer and publisher as well). However these other games are all relatively cheap, if not free-to-play, and the for sale mods amounted to individual items within the game (a weapon, a hat, etc.). Skyrim on the other hand had mods that included UI overhauls, bug fixes, total conversions, new quests and NPC's, new mechanics, in addition to new items and assets. Not only that, but the community had been doing this all for free for years now.

Valve tried to expand their program and allow mod creators for Skyrim who are using the Workshop to create and monetize their mods if they so chose, and it caused a massive shitstorm. For sure, some of it is people freaking out over the prospect of paying for something that has traditionally been free, regardless of whether or not 'tradition' is a good justification for anything. It's possible that with the option to officially monetize mods, it removes a lot of the legal grey area, and can encourage more professional or higher skilled developers to enter this mod scene or be more prolific with the incentive of being paid for their work. The downside was Valve's entirely libertarian and hands-off approach to curation and quality control; with nothing in place to either prevent or discourage troll mods, price gouging, or even some from posting anther person's work and monetizing it for themselves. Also the mod maker's cut was only 25%, which even if you thought this might be a good idea, almost everyone agreed that it was a bullshit profit split. It was an interesting idea, horribly implemented and thrust upon an established community that was not consulted before it was dropped on their laps; it short, it was incredibly tone deaf.

After 3 days of raising hell and an online petition of over one hundred thirty thousand, Valve removed the paid-mods storefront from Skyrim on Steam and issued a mea culpa on their blog.

And of course, Res Publica thinks it's all some sort of SJW conspiracy because he's fucking thick as a brick.

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02-05-2015, 10:49 PM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
So the first monetized Mod, before the system was scrapped. Realistic horse genitals for $99.99. Yup first one and Valve had to scramble to take it down. This was such a poor idea at every stage. Patreon is a much better system for this kind of thing anyway.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-05-2015, 11:27 PM
RE: No. Just no Gabe.
(02-05-2015 10:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So the first monetized Mod, before the system was scrapped. Realistic horse genitals for $99.99. Yup first one and Valve had to scramble to take it down. This was such a poor idea at every stage. Patreon is a much better system for this kind of thing anyway.

Please tell me that was like the I Am Rich app...

You know, it wasn't made with any serious intent, just to prove a point...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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