No Talk of Terrorism
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23-04-2013, 09:57 PM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
It's still early in the investigation, but first reports are that it was over the war in Iraq and Afghanistan--at least if you believe anonymous sources in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/b...print.html
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The 19-year-old suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings has told interrogators that the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan motivated him and his brother to carry out the attack, according to U.S. officials familiar with the interviews.

From his hospital bed, where he is now listed in fair condition, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has acknowledged his role in planting the explosives near the marathon finish line on April 15, the officials said. The first successful large-scale bombing in the post-Sept. 11, 2001, era, the Boston attack killed three people and wounded more than 250 others.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to describe an ongoing investigation, said Dzhokhar and his older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was killed by police as the two attempted to avoid capture, do not appear to have been directed by a foreign terrorist organization.

Rather, the officials said, the evidence so far suggests they were “self-radicalized” through Internet sites and U.S. actions in the Muslim world. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has specifically cited the U.S. war in Iraq, which ended in December 2011 with the removal of the last American forces, and the war in Afghanistan, where President Obama plans to end combat operations by the end of 2014.


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24-04-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
(23-04-2013 08:32 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  When you examine the motivations of people like these, you find that it isn't actually religion that causes them to do the things they do. What causes their actions is the mental injury they suffer at the hands of their caregivers as children.

While it's true that the most abusive parents are religious, it isn't the religion that causes the damage... it's the abuse.

In the end, arguing that Islam is a cause of terrorism is to argue that guns are a cause of murder.

There are (at least) two levels to this.

  1. <Meme> presents a message of intolerance and hate.
  2. There are people who are susceptible to that kind of message.


In number 1, <Meme> can be replaced with Radical Islam, Fundamentalist Christianity, or any number of other hateful ideas.

We aren't going to be able to eradicate those memes without addressing number 2.
Number 2 is where there is leverage. There are people born with broken brains and there are people whose upbringing and experience have damaged their minds.

Advances in neuroscience may lead us to identification and treatment for broken brains. Advances in social sciences may lead us to identification and treatment of damaged minds.

Individuals, families, and societies are responsible for the damage to minds and for the solutions. Let's work on number 2.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-04-2013, 07:45 AM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
(24-04-2013 07:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Let's work on number 2.

Nah, fuck that. Let's just have a hate-filled anti-Islamic rant right now...

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...ok, that's all I got. Tongue

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24-04-2013, 10:10 AM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
(23-04-2013 09:56 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(23-04-2013 09:23 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  The only thing to do is what the government of America already does -

Why is it that reacting to planned events is the only thing that can be done?

Because we don't have pre-crime technology. By the time people do something that gives evidence of intent, such as traveling to certain places, contacting criminals, and buying materials, we are simply reacting to plans, not preventing the plans from being conceived. The only way we can prevent people from deciding to make plans in the first place is to change their mentality, and I think that requires getting to them as kids. But homegrown terrorists have gone to public school, gone to a boring, regular mosque every week, lived life as a middle-class American, and still gone crazy.

We could in theory ban the religion that inspires it, but then we're just becoming the zionist crusaders that al-Qaida says we are. And that won't help reduce the number of radicals in the existing population, or discourage attacks from foreigners.

We just don't have a way of knowing who will grow up to become a murderer.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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24-04-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
(24-04-2013 07:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 07:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Let's work on number 2.

Nah, fuck that. Let's just have a hate-filled anti-Islamic rant right now...

[Image: muslim+pussy+cat.jpg]

...ok, that's all I got. Tongue




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24-04-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: No Talk of Terrorism
(24-04-2013 10:10 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  We just don't have a way of knowing who will grow up to become a murderer.

And even if we did, would it be just to send someone to jail before they commit, attempt, or even plan a crime, simply because we predict they will?

The problem here is not Islam. It's a radical, extremist, hate-mongering, murderous subset of Islam (or at least people who identify as Muslims, and we'll leave aside whether murders can be true Muslims). This is akin to saying that the KKK is representative of Christianity.

Granted, there are big problems with both religions, but there's no need to paint with brush strokes that broad.

And I'll agree with Elesjei's earlier post. Targeting Islam at large is not a viable strategy, both because of the legal restraints on the US government with regards to religion, and the inevitable pitfalls facing people who discard such restraint. The correct response is surgical. There are a great many Muslims who are peaceful, and a good surgeon doesn't cut out the healthy flesh along with the bad. So, target the response to just the behavior and just the hate groups that are a problem, and leave the larger religion be. It's a distraction, an uninvolved bystander, and a hornet's nest all in one.

That's not mealy-mouthed liberalism talking, that's just good tactics.

That said, there IS one more thing that can be done -- spreading a message that this sort of violence is unacceptable in Islam. That's not the sort of thing that the US government can do (hello, establishment clause), and it wouldn't work when imposed by the outside. But it COULD come from moderate Muslims. I'd love to hear about fatwas being issued by moderate imams against the terrorists and the theocrats for their obvious violations of Sharia law.

That won't happen, though, for the same reason that liberal Christians aren't crowding onto cable news to denounce Pat Robertson. The same ability to embrace coexistence with other religions leads them to remain silent while their radical cousins spew hate. And that IS mealy-mouthed liberalism.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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