No True Scotsman
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18-03-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: No True Scotsman
(18-03-2012 03:04 PM)Eternal Wrote:  Maybe you should take a slightly different tac.

When they assert that you were never a true christian, why not just assert that you don't think they are either. Chances are this will annoy them. The only way they can prove they are is to listen to your reasoning in it's entiriety, if at the end they still follow christ then they are a true christian (in their mind at least).

It may be a bit manipulative, but that just means you are approaching them the way their ideology approaches society so we have a level playing field.

I understand where you're coming from, but I personally make a strong effort to be consistent. I retain the power to call people on their hypocrisy for as long as I don't act like a hypocrite... even to make a point. But if it works for you, have at it.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-03-2012, 07:43 PM
RE: No True Scotsman
(18-03-2012 06:31 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I understand where you're coming from, but I personally make a strong effort to be consistent. I retain the power to call people on their hypocrisy for as long as I don't act like a hypocrite... even to make a point. But if it works for you, have at it.

I agree. Mostly that is what I do as well. It does sometimes feel like banging your head against a brick wall though. Just thinking out loud about other possibilities I guess.

I'm not sure how I would approach it yet, or even if I will at all. I think there is definitely something to be said for making the recipients brain as receptable to new information as possible. Mostly in these sort of debates minds are closed, people are more concerned with proving their points than listening.

Maybe I will pop to see my local priest to test my hypothesis when I am home, after all if anyone is willing to listen and help, it should be him. Big Grin

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-03-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
@Girlyman

I don't know, I think my "No True Scotsman" was valid... because... well, by self admittance, you and Eric aren't Scotsmen.

Also keep in mind about the theology. In the theology, no man can be separated from God; therefore, if there is separation, then they were never of God.

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19-03-2012, 08:31 AM
 
RE: No True Scotsman
Yep! Thats an EASY answer for them plus its a 'shield of armor' for them as well. Because if they started to really think...they'd see that THEY TOO could loose their faith...so there is comfort in their answer by making them MORE saved than you were...also by making YOUR SAVED simply a self delusion.

Dan Barker gets this stuff too. His rebuttal (in most of his debates) is "If i was not saved then NO one could be ever saved" then he goes on to give his Religious Resume.

What i find COMICAL about my Christian pals here in the south, when i mention Dan Barker (maybe this happens in other parts of the USA) is they find out where he went to school...then go 'tisk tisk tisk' then find out his denomination and go 'tisk tisk tisk' all while nodding their heads. And something is said in jest about 'he did not really have right kind of faith' or the 'well you know those crazy (insert denomination other than your own here) they are not really plugged in.

BUT if Dan RECONVERTED BACK to Christianity, they'd have Billboards with his newly saved face on it, he'd be the poster boy for them. Its very much a 'my team can kick your teams ass' mentality. And it all makes sense because all the Christians are currently tailgating for the BIG game between Jesus and Satan (revelations), so that silly sports mentality manifests its self in religion, but not just religion...but YOUR religion was whacked therefore you were not properly saved....and MINE is exactly the formula you need.

In an email discussion my bestest friend in the whole world (who works at Focus on the Family) told me that i was never really saved to begin with...and that if i had...i would have never lost it! Typical.
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19-03-2012, 09:16 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 08:31 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Yep! Thats an EASY answer for them plus its a 'shield of armor' for them as well. Because if they started to really think...they'd see that THEY TOO could loose their faith...so there is comfort in their answer by making them MORE saved than you were...also by making YOUR SAVED simply a self delusion.

Dan Barker gets this stuff too. His rebuttal (in most of his debates) is "If i was not saved then NO one could be ever saved" then he goes on to give his Religious Resume.

What i find COMICAL about my Christian pals here in the south, when i mention Dan Barker (maybe this happens in other parts of the USA) is they find out where he went to school...then go 'tisk tisk tisk' then find out his denomination and go 'tisk tisk tisk' all while nodding their heads. And something is said in jest about 'he did not really have right kind of faith' or the 'well you know those crazy (insert denomination other than your own here) they are not really plugged in.

BUT if Dan RECONVERTED BACK to Christianity, they'd have Billboards with his newly saved face on it, he'd be the poster boy for them. Its very much a 'my team can kick your teams ass' mentality. And it all makes sense because all the Christians are currently tailgating for the BIG game between Jesus and Satan (revelations), so that silly sports mentality manifests its self in religion, but not just religion...but YOUR religion was whacked therefore you were not properly saved....and MINE is exactly the formula you need.

In an email discussion my bestest friend in the whole world (who works at Focus on the Family) told me that i was never really saved to begin with...and that if i had...i would have never lost it! Typical.

The irony to this "you weren't really a Christian, blah blah" is all about the timing. Ask me even just a few years ago and no one would have doubt that I was a "TRUE CHRISTIAN." Ask me now and I'm an atheist.

For 40 years no one ever questioned if I was a "real" Christian. I sure didn't question it. I knew I was saved. I knew God loved me. I knew I was abiding in Christ and he was in me. I knew that I had been called to serve God and bring others into relationship with him. In fact, I could provide you with an extensive list of Believers who would still tell you that I'm a "real" Christian (simply because I've never broadcasted my de-conversion).

But now that I have realized what a crock all religion is, KC and others can sit there on their High Horse and judge: "You weren't a real Christian."
Well...Duh. You're not a real Christian either. It's all make-believe.

But as for following Jesus as my Lord and Savior...I sure the fuck was a Christian, and none of your apologetic acrobatics about being separated from God can change that. Sorry. Try as you will you cannot take away the fact that I was a TRUE disciple of Jesus.

So suck that, Theists. Yeah, you know who I'm talking to.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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19-03-2012, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2012 09:36 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: No True Scotsman
This again?

Why does this still make you mad?

Seriously? If you were a true Christian, then you would still be a Christian. You said you wasted your time. You said it was all a facade. You said you felt God and attributed that to emotion and social stimulation.

You get offended at me saying the truth? You weren't a Christian; you never were.

Don't give me that crap about apologetics either. Yes, they don't matter now because you're an atheist so it falls under the "n/a" category; however, under the Christian theology that you subscribed to, you would be considered someone who was never a Christian.

Your non-attribution to theology is completely moot based on your beliefs, but they are relevant to Christian theology. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

This is obviously still a touchy subject for you, which I don't understand. You should just say, "Well, yeah, you're right... I never was a true Christian. I just followed all that crap and wasted a bunch of time."

I thought we had worked this out, but you getting offended at a true statement is baffling.

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19-03-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
Just gotta state once again Erx I find it absolutely extraordinary that you have been able to let go all that religious baggage so completely. I mean... wow. Mad props...
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19-03-2012, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2012 09:39 AM by Erxomai.)
RE: No True Scotsman
Thanks Moron, and KC...it's just ridiculous to me, that's all. Of course I wasn't a real Christian, but you're not either. That's the whole point.

PS...you're the one that brought it back up, not me.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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19-03-2012, 09:40 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:37 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Thanks Moron, and KC...it's just ridiculous to me, that's all. Of course I wasn't a real Christian, but you're not either. That's the whole point.

PS...you're the one that brought it back up, not me.

who's you? Me? I'm not you I'm fairly sure because I didn't bring it up...
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19-03-2012, 09:41 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-03-2012 09:37 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Thanks Moron, and KC...it's just ridiculous to me, that's all. Of course I wasn't a real Christian, but you're not either. That's the whole point.

PS...you're the one that brought it back up, not me.

who's you? Me? I'm not you I'm fairly sure because I didn't bring it up...

Lol...sorry...I was addressing the delusional one. Tongue

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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