No True Scotsman
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19-03-2012, 09:41 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
Ok I figured it out now. You is KC Tongue
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19-03-2012, 09:42 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
Actually, Girlyman brought it up.

But anyway, not getting into this again. Nothing edifying will come from it.

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19-03-2012, 09:44 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ok I figured it out now. You is KC Tongue

No I'm not. You is!


@KC, if by "nothing edifying" you mean you can't prove to me that you're currently a Christian any more than I could prove to you that I was a Christian when I believed, then I agree.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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19-03-2012, 09:53 AM
 
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:16 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-03-2012 08:31 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Yep! Thats an EASY answer for them plus its a 'shield of armor' for them as well. Because if they started to really think...they'd see that THEY TOO could loose their faith...so there is comfort in their answer by making them MORE saved than you were...also by making YOUR SAVED simply a self delusion.

Dan Barker gets this stuff too. His rebuttal (in most of his debates) is "If i was not saved then NO one could be ever saved" then he goes on to give his Religious Resume.

What i find COMICAL about my Christian pals here in the south, when i mention Dan Barker (maybe this happens in other parts of the USA) is they find out where he went to school...then go 'tisk tisk tisk' then find out his denomination and go 'tisk tisk tisk' all while nodding their heads. And something is said in jest about 'he did not really have right kind of faith' or the 'well you know those crazy (insert denomination other than your own here) they are not really plugged in.

BUT if Dan RECONVERTED BACK to Christianity, they'd have Billboards with his newly saved face on it, he'd be the poster boy for them. Its very much a 'my team can kick your teams ass' mentality. And it all makes sense because all the Christians are currently tailgating for the BIG game between Jesus and Satan (revelations), so that silly sports mentality manifests its self in religion, but not just religion...but YOUR religion was whacked therefore you were not properly saved....and MINE is exactly the formula you need.

In an email discussion my bestest friend in the whole world (who works at Focus on the Family) told me that i was never really saved to begin with...and that if i had...i would have never lost it! Typical.

The irony to this "you weren't really a Christian, blah blah" is all about the timing. Ask me even just a few years ago and no one would have doubt that I was a "TRUE CHRISTIAN." Ask me now and I'm an atheist.

For 40 years no one ever questioned if I was a "real" Christian. I sure didn't question it. I knew I was saved. I knew God loved me. I knew I was abiding in Christ and he was in me. I knew that I had been called to serve God and bring others into relationship with him. In fact, I could provide you with an extensive list of Believers who would still tell you that I'm a "real" Christian (simply because I've never broadcasted my de-conversion).

But now that I have realized what a crock all religion is, KC and others can sit there on their High Horse and judge: "You weren't a real Christian."
Well...Duh. You're not a real Christian either. It's all make-believe.

But as for following Jesus as my Lord and Savior...I sure the fuck was a Christian, and none of your apologetic acrobatics about being separated from God can change that. Sorry. Try as you will you cannot take away the fact that I was a TRUE disciple of Jesus.

So suck that, Theists. Yeah, you know who I'm talking to.

@ Exormai..........Winner Winner, chicken Dinner!

Your post times a zillion. Who is ANYONE else to say what YOU or I was...or how plugged into the god machine.

NO ONE, i mean NO ONE would have even doubted my savedness or my sincerity when i was a practicing Christan. Hell, i was used as an EXAMPLE by my church at times.

So KC or someone else has a different version...one version from 30 thousand versions of Christianity, to say.."Sorry bozo, you did not get it right". Whatever!
When i hear that, i know its eyes and ears closed and the brain kicks in to 'canned answer/apologetic number 66' and the mouth opens and out blathers some slimy response that makes the person saying it feel better about their own position. They've got a chapter and verse that they hold on to DEARLY, that they have interpreted in such a way that it makes sense to them and it speaks to them in such a way that if others DONT hear it the same way..then YOU are the one with the problem, have lack of ..., or NOT part of the team.

"My version of snake oil says you never really bought snake oil before, as a matter of a fact you had water when you thought you had snake oil so all along you were lying to yourself and others that you had snake oil" Yeah, thats what it sounds like to me! Its ALL snake oil, just who's brand and from what charlatan are you trying to sell me? And yes, back in the day..i TOO was a Snake Oil consumer and Promoter!
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19-03-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:53 AM)Denicio Wrote:  So KC or someone else has a different version...one version from 30 thousand versions of Christianity, to say.."Sorry bozo, you did not get it right". Whatever!
When i hear that, i know its eyes and ears closed and the brain kicks in to 'canned answer/apologetic number 66' and the mouth opens and out blathers some slimy response that makes the person saying it feel better about their own position. They've got a chapter and verse that they hold on to DEARLY, that they have interpreted in such a way that it makes sense to them and it speaks to them in such a way that if others DONT hear it the same way..then YOU are the one with the problem, have lack of ..., or NOT part of the team.

"My version of snake oil says you never really bought snake oil before, as a matter of a fact you had water when you thought you had snake oil so all along you were lying to yourself and others that you had snake oil" Yeah, thats what it sounds like to me! Its ALL snake oil, just who's brand and from what charlatan are you trying to sell me? And yes, back in the day..i TOO was a Snake Oil consumer and Promoter!

Indeed...the other irony is there are plenty of people who would say that you and I are still saved under the "Once Saved Always Saved" motif. We only think we've de-converted. Won't we be surprised when we end up in heaven after all? Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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19-03-2012, 10:07 AM
 
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 10:02 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-03-2012 09:53 AM)Denicio Wrote:  So KC or someone else has a different version...one version from 30 thousand versions of Christianity, to say.."Sorry bozo, you did not get it right". Whatever!
When i hear that, i know its eyes and ears closed and the brain kicks in to 'canned answer/apologetic number 66' and the mouth opens and out blathers some slimy response that makes the person saying it feel better about their own position. They've got a chapter and verse that they hold on to DEARLY, that they have interpreted in such a way that it makes sense to them and it speaks to them in such a way that if others DONT hear it the same way..then YOU are the one with the problem, have lack of ..., or NOT part of the team.

"My version of snake oil says you never really bought snake oil before, as a matter of a fact you had water when you thought you had snake oil so all along you were lying to yourself and others that you had snake oil" Yeah, thats what it sounds like to me! Its ALL snake oil, just who's brand and from what charlatan are you trying to sell me? And yes, back in the day..i TOO was a Snake Oil consumer and Promoter!

Indeed...the other irony is there are plenty of people who would say that you and I are still saved under the "Once Saved Always Saved" motif. We only think we've de-converted. Won't we be surprised when we end up in heaven after all? Big Grin

Yeah, behind our backs they'd murmer the word "Backslidden" as they spoke about us and shook their heads like a dissapointed parent. We'd just end up with the nosebleed seats at the Holy Ghost/Nokia Stadium when watching 'JC and the Sunshine Band'!!!
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19-03-2012, 10:37 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:33 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This again?

Why does this still make you mad?

Seriously? If you were a true Christian, then you would still be a Christian. You said you wasted your time. You said it was all a facade. You said you felt God and attributed that to emotion and social stimulation.

You get offended at me saying the truth? You weren't a Christian; you never were.

Don't give me that crap about apologetics either. Yes, they don't matter now because you're an atheist so it falls under the "n/a" category; however, under the Christian theology that you subscribed to, you would be considered someone who was never a Christian.

Your non-attribution to theology is completely moot based on your beliefs, but they are relevant to Christian theology. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

This is obviously still a touchy subject for you, which I don't understand. You should just say, "Well, yeah, you're right... I never was a true Christian. I just followed all that crap and wasted a bunch of time."

I thought we had worked this out, but you getting offended at a true statement is baffling.

By that logic any opinion you have regarding reality should be moot due to your theology? Rather than comparing apples and oranges your standpoint is one of exclaiming the existence of oranges whilst all the evidence only points to apples.

Consider what you believe, consider the evidence for this. Now please provide one credible reason why I should take anything you say about life seriously.

My definition of a true christian is someone who has never realised what a load of bollocks they believe. So everyone who claims to be a christian is a true christian. The only variations are how much these beliefs are part of their life. I'm sure the more ardent they are the more they experience, strange that don't you think. Whilst this could be put down to them seeking more, I would think that delusion is more likely. In the same way as if I have just watched a really scary horror film then have to go outside in the dark, it is no different from any other time but I may still well find myself scuttling into the house a bit quicker than normal or checking behind me more often. Does that mean monsters are real, of course not, it is just the way my brain has reacted and is tricking me after watching such a film. What must a belief in something preposterous that is held for decades convince the brain of, especially when for lots the majority of that belief is gained in the formative years and the acceptance of there family, society etc was dependent on it.

EOE (due to champagne)

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-03-2012, 11:09 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 09:33 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You get offended at me saying the truth? You weren't a Christian; you never were.

Isn't this exactly the myth that my thread was attempting to dispel?

I don't know if you believe that I was once a Christian, and it would probably be silly to judge because you didn't know me when I was... and I'm not privy to your discussion with Erxomai so I don't know where your disbelief in his faith comes from. My mother's a different story, because she and I came to be Christians through the same method; we believed the same things, and to call herself a "true Christian" is an unreasoned double-standard. I simply don't know if you and I agree on methodology and definition.

But the very word "Christian" is ambiguous. There is so little agreement on what constitutes a Christian, how one becomes a Christian, or how to tell if someone is a Christian. Unless you're willing to define it specifically and not change that definition if someone fulfills it, then you are committing this fallacy yourself.

Is it possible that I believed that I was a Christian, even though I wasn't? Of course. I could argue that there is scripture to back up my claim (and I already have cited relevant scripture) but even that scripture is up for personal interpretation. And since no one has ever scientifically demonstrated a causal link between any interpretation of scripture and going to Heaven, it's even possible that the way to Heaven isn't found in scripture at all.

I don't argue that there are no Christians at all. I think both you, Kingschosen, and Eroxmai are both equivocating this with the definition in the dictionary ("one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ") and your own personal definitions, which seems to be "one who is going to Heaven".

Just be aware that your definition of Christianity is probably subjective and definitely disputable.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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19-03-2012, 11:22 AM
 
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 11:09 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(19-03-2012 09:33 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You get offended at me saying the truth? You weren't a Christian; you never were.

Isn't this exactly the myth that my thread was attempting to dispel?

I don't know if you believe that I was once a Christian, and it would probably be silly to judge because you didn't know me when I was... and I'm not privy to your discussion with Erxomai so I don't know where your disbelief in his faith comes from. My mother's a different story, because she and I came to be Christians through the same method; we believed the same things, and to call herself a "true Christian" is an unreasoned double-standard. I simply don't know if you and I agree on methodology and definition.

But the very word "Christian" is ambiguous. There is so little agreement on what constitutes a Christian, how one becomes a Christian, or how to tell if someone is a Christian. Unless you're willing to define it specifically and not change that definition if someone fulfills it, then you are committing this fallacy yourself.

Is it possible that I believed that I was a Christian, even though I wasn't? Of course. I could argue that there is scripture to back up my claim (and I already have cited relevant scripture) but even that scripture is up for personal interpretation. And since no one has ever scientifically demonstrated a causal link between any interpretation of scripture and going to Heaven, it's even possible that the way to Heaven isn't found in scripture at all.

I don't argue that there are no Christians at all. I think both you, Kingschosen, and Eroxmai are both equivocating this with the definition in the dictionary ("one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ") and your own personal definitions, which seems to be "one who is going to Heaven".

Just be aware that your definition of Christianity is probably subjective and definitely disputable.

Starcrash,
KC has this odd type of PreDetermined Christianity. He was chosen and not all are chosen. So there are MANY, hundreds, thousands, millions of those walking around claiming, foolishly, to be christians when they are not chosen. He'll be able to point you to one of the many threads about this VERSION of the same song. It reminds me VERY much of when my best friend was buying into the 144K virgin thing. He felt he was chosen to be part of that group. He's since moved on from that brand of lunacy.

KC's version is in the name...KingsChosen...he literally believes JC singled him out..and the rest...well, we are just 'factory seconds'...i guess.

Not really sure how his dogma accounts for the rest of us and why we are here and what our purpose is......if we even have one. Maybe to KC we are like Dogs and Cats that dont have souls and are here for the amusement for those that DO have souls. I wonder in KC land if there are CHOSEN dogs and cats that get to spend eternity in heaven too! Yes there is mocking in my tone cuz i think he's nucking futz...even though i like the fella!

D
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19-03-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: No True Scotsman
(19-03-2012 10:07 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Yeah, behind our backs they'd murmer the word "Backslidden" as they spoke about us and shook their heads like a dissapointed parent. We'd just end up with the nosebleed seats at the Holy Ghost/Nokia Stadium when watching 'JC and the Sunshine Band'!!!

Don't forget Tim Tebow leading the choir!

Maybe Petra will play a few of their old hits as well!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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