No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
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26-06-2015, 06:38 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
It's the barrier of basic education. Most people don't have it, and you can't summarize years of schooling in 5 minutes. You can't expect understanding of words that are not everyday usage. In most conversations like this you are expecting people with considerably less education to comprehend in 5 minutes what took you years to learn. Not gonna happen. Most conversations like this are bound to fail from the start. You lose people with the second or third word they don't understand.

I have explained some basics successfully. I offer one sentence at a time and then test for comprehension. I make sure I use no "big words", and if I must, I make sure I explain them and test for comprehension. It's like explaining to a 5 year old without being condescending. It's an art.

The reason people don't get it is not that there are not enough facts. It is a failure in communication.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-06-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
(25-06-2015 05:53 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(25-06-2015 12:42 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Actually I don't totally understand how it works, not being terribly scientifically minded, but I get the general gist of it.

Still more than most creationists.

One of the big differences between me and creationists is that I'm thrilled we humans are genetically related to apes and, indeed, that we are apes. I enjoy being part of the animal kingdom. If we separate ourselves apart from animals we become an unnatural "thing".

Does that make any sense?

So even though I haven't studies evolution too much, it's illogical to think we humans don't belong alongside, nor fit in, with every other species on this planet.

(Spent a lot of time in the woods when I was growing up. I like nature. )

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26-06-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
"No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented"

Exactly. It doesn't work that way. But what is interesting recently, is that as epigenetics becomes a bit more understood, some "rapid" changes are seen, and one generation being able to pass on specific learned behaviors to the next generation epigenetically seems to be possible, and that may partly account for "explosion" (or faster than normal) phases in evolution.

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26-06-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
Here's a Lariosaurus:

[Image: lariosaurus_by_ntamura.jpg]

To further muddy the waters (excuse the pun), it gave birth to live young.

Is it an example of a dinosaur, fish or mammal? It's a unique taxon from the super order Sauropterygia that has gone extinct.

When something straddles different classifications like this, where is the micro\macro evolutionary line drawn?

Maybe it's better to not draw this line at all? Maybe this is a line that a person trying to dodge the evidence would come up with?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-06-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
Marine reptile, not dinosaur. There were no marine dinosaurs (Spinosaurus was kind of aquatic, but more like an alligator as an ambush predator).

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26-06-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
I've communicated with people over this before. As others say, it's often them not having a clue on how evolution actually works because they have to refuse to accept it. You can say something simple and based on it so much but they don't grasp it at all because they want to see the equivalent of a Dog turning into a Cat as some concept of evolution.

They say they want information of a species shifting to doing something it genetically didn't do. We have natural examples of these systematic changes like types of Skinks in Australia have been found transitioning to live births apart their offshooted species relatives.

It's rather simply how they don't want to trust scientific and studied evidence on these factors.

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26-06-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
(26-06-2015 10:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I've communicated with people over this before. As others say, it's often them not having a clue on how evolution actually works because they have to refuse to accept it. You can say something simple and based on it so much but they don't grasp it at all because they want to see the equivalent of a Dog turning into a Cat as some concept of evolution.

They say they want information of a species shifting to doing something it genetically didn't do. We have natural examples of these systematic changes like types of Skinks in Australia have been found transitioning to live births apart their offshooted species relatives.

It's rather simply how they don't want to trust scientific and studied evidence on these factors.

That's usually what I ask them, "What exactly do you mean by 'documented', and what evidence could I offer you that you'd consider as proof?" In my first year of graduate school, I helped a professor who engaged in a debate with a fundie (one of Ken Hamm's organization) who came to our campus to hold a "debate", and helped beat their "Machine-Gun Tactic" in a way that made me visible on stage to the large auditorium. Thereafter, when my motorcycle jacket and I were recognized on campus, I'd be asked, "Hey, aren't you that evolution guy?" and asked questions of the most inane nature, pretty much weekly from then until I left that university a semester later. (Sadly, without attaining my MS.)

If they mean a species instantly transforming from a cat to a dog (yes, I've had them--more than one-- specifically ask for this as evidence, to my face, and I didn't know if I should explode in laughter or run as fast in the other direction as possible), then there's nothing you can do, as this isn't remotely what evolution claims or how it works.

But if they're willing to accept the sort of scientific evidence commonly admissible in (some) courtrooms, then genetics can be used to conclusively show that we are unquestionably the descendants of the same ancestor as our cousins the chimpanzees. Not "likely", not "it seems to be", but absolutely, no question, based on what we know of how DNA copies and is inherited.

It may be useful to point them to books by Christian Evangelicals who are also scientists, such as Dr. Francis S. Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project, current Science Advisor to the U.S. President (last I checked), and who wrote The Language of God about the absolute proof in our DNA that humans are apes, and directly related to chimps and other great apes.

Also, this pdf might help you shape some arguments in layman's terms that could reach a person if you can prevent their "Cognitive Dissonance fuse" from tripping:

Chromosome Connections: Compelling Clues to Common Ancestry

Dr. Collins' book: The Language of God

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-06-2015, 10:58 PM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
(26-06-2015 07:35 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(25-06-2015 05:53 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Still more than most creationists.

One of the big differences between me and creationists is that I'm thrilled we humans are genetically related to apes and, indeed, that we are apes. I enjoy being part of the animal kingdom. If we separate ourselves apart from animals we become an unnatural "thing".

Does that make any sense?

So even though I haven't studies evolution too much, it's illogical to think we humans don't belong alongside, nor fit in, with every other species on this planet.

(Spent a lot of time in the woods when I was growing up. I like nature. )

Makes perfect sense, wanting to fit in and feeling out of place if we don't.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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26-06-2015, 11:12 PM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
(26-06-2015 07:35 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  (Spent a lot of time in the woods when I was growing up. I like nature. )


Is it true about bears???

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26-06-2015, 11:39 PM
RE: No case of macro-evolution has ever been documented
(26-06-2015 11:12 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 07:35 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  (Spent a lot of time in the woods when I was growing up. I like nature. )


Is it true about bears???

Consider Uhhhhhhhh.....maybe......maybe not. Tease It's mostly much ado about nothing.


(exit stage left....pursued by bear)

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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