No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
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25-07-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 03:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 02:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is introducing religion into a function of government, 1st amendment forbids this. If you want a secular government you should be against that.

If it is introducing religion then you should be able to identify the religion it is introducing. Can you identify what religion is being introduced? It seems to me you conflating the mentioning of a deity which may or may not exist with religion. They are quite different things.

If you want to play hair-splitting games, it establishes monotheism versus any other religion.

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25-07-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 04:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 04:17 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Let's say for the sake of argument that you're a Christian. In order to get your diploma where you live you are forced to acknowledge Vishnu as a god. What kind of stink do you think the Christians would make about such a scenario?

I'd speak the words to the silly oath, grab my diploma and go on with my life. As long as the oath can't be used to harm me later I'm not going to get my "panties in a bind" over it.

Life is too short and there are more important battles to fight.

Life is too short for you to have principles?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
Having a discussion on the internet is hardly 'getting my panties in a bunch' you wouldn't like me when I'm angery...and panties don't do my hairy ass justice.

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25-07-2013, 05:18 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 04:29 PM)Ratatat Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 04:21 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If forcing people to take oaths is immoral, then you are affected by it independent of your atheism. The real issue is the oath itself and not that it includes the phrase, "So help me God".

This is a thinking atheist forum, not the superfluous thinking atheist forum.

Heywood the issue here isn't necessarily the words "So help me God." The real issue is forcing individuals to take an oath to graduate high school. And also this is a majority Christian country. It's assumed the Christian god is being implied in the oath Drinking Beverage

The oath doesn't single out atheists any more than it singles out monarchists. The title of the thread could have been, "No diploma for Monarchists in AZ if Constitutionalist have their way"

Had the oath not included the words "So help me God", this thread wouldn't exist. This thread exists because some atheists are a little butt hurt because they think they are being singled out. Well I am here to tell you that you can stop being butt hurt. This oath isn't an attempt to convert you a religion. Its not an introduction of religion or an act to try to subvert your views. It is a silly cultural exercise. Treat it as such and move on.
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25-07-2013, 05:19 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 01:59 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  "So help me God" isn't a declaration of belief in God. An atheist can say it and still be an atheist.

Sure, its a silly for an atheist to say, but so is making a stink about it.
So these Republicans shouldn't be making a stink that requires even atheists to say it in order to graduate. Glad we agree...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-07-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 05:18 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 04:29 PM)Ratatat Wrote:  Heywood the issue here isn't necessarily the words "So help me God." The real issue is forcing individuals to take an oath to graduate high school. And also this is a majority Christian country. It's assumed the Christian god is being implied in the oath Drinking Beverage

The oath doesn't single out atheists any more than it singles out monarchists. The title of the thread could have been, "No diploma for Monarchists in AZ if Constitutionalist have their way"

Had the oath not included the words "So help me God", this thread wouldn't exist. This thread exists because some atheists are a little butt hurt because they think they are being singled out. Well I am here to tell you that you can stop being butt hurt. This oath isn't an attempt to convert you a religion. Its not an introduction of religion or an act to try to subvert your views. It is a silly cultural exercise. Treat it as such and move on.

Until Atheist tries to run for AZ congress or something and they try to bring them up on perjury charges or w/e.

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25-07-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 02:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 02:07 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  We know "so help me god" isn't a declaration of belief but people shouldn't be forced to say it.

It isn't silly to call these morons on their violations of the rights of citizens.

I think this treads on the Establishment Clause.

Suppose the "So help me God" part was left out. Would you be okay forcing people to say the rest of the oath?
No, a diploma is supposed to represent the education received and achieved, not the oath recited.

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25-07-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 01:57 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  LH, your response has absolutely nothing to do with my statement whatsoever, and it presumed quite a bit for my simple statement, but I know you were waiting for an excuse to use your pol. cartoon. Meh, whatever.

Drek.

No, I am very familiar with your stupid political beliefs. I knew what you meant with your criticisms of politicians, and I am also familiar with your unsustainable wet-dream of a solution to the U.S' problem. Drinking Beverage

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25-07-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 04:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 03:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If it is introducing religion then you should be able to identify the religion it is introducing. Can you identify what religion is being introduced? It seems to me you conflating the mentioning of a deity which may or may not exist with religion. They are quite different things.

If you want to play hair-splitting games, it establishes monotheism versus any other religion.

Monotheism isn't a religion. If a religion is being introduced you should be able to specifically point it out. You can't so the argument that it violates separation of church and state fails.

Also I don't think you could make a case that it establishes monotheism. When a person says the oath and says, "So help me God" for all you know when they say "god" they could be thinking about Vishnu, Jehovah, or some fairytale.
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25-07-2013, 05:28 PM
RE: No diploma for Atheists in AZ if the fundees have their way...
(25-07-2013 02:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-07-2013 02:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  No. This has nothing to do with getting a high school diploma.

Oaths are only meaningful if they are enforced. This oath will never be enforced. In the end this is just one of many silly cultural exercises. I don't see why atheists, people who have no belief in God, should get worked up about it. Only God haters have a strong reason.
I don't see why the religious don't get worked up over the absurdity of requiring ANY oath for graduation. If I was still religious, I would still object strongly to the requirement of this or any other oath regardless of what it said. But apparently it would probably have to say something like "I swear there is no god in existence" before it would bother you to have your freedom undermined.

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