No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
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23-08-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 10:40 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 06:56 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I said that disability is for mental and physical problems. Welfare people are yes lazy. Could be working, but say "If I can't have a high paying career, then fuck it I'll do nothing.".

And you know for a fact that every single person on welfare is on welfare for that reason? Bullshit. Undoubtedly there are some of those, but also many who can't work, for various reasons. Stop painting with such a broad brush.

We have seen welfare numbers drastically fall when work requirements were implemented in the late 90s when the GOP passed and Clinton eventually signed into law welfare reform. So, while not "all" of them, at least before welfare reform, something like "half of them" was probably more accurate.

When Obama took office, he took action to greatly increase work requirement exemptions as they were requested by states, in part to address the economy that blew up. But the result has been that as unemployment numbers creep down, people are not returning to the work force. I don't have direct evidence for the lax work requirements being the cause for stubbornly high welfare numbers in the face of falling unemployment, but experience shows that if given the choice, a large number of people will choose not to work and receive welfare instead if there isn't much economic upside to working.
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23-08-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:02 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 10:40 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And you know for a fact that every single person on welfare is on welfare for that reason? Bullshit. Undoubtedly there are some of those, but also many who can't work, for various reasons. Stop painting with such a broad brush.

We have seen welfare numbers drastically fall when work requirements were implemented in the late 90s when the GOP passed and Clinton eventually signed into law welfare reform. So, while not "all" of them, at least before welfare reform, something like "half of them" was probably more accurate.

When Obama took office, he took action to greatly increase work requirement exemptions as they were requested by states, in part to address the economy that blew up. But the result has been that as unemployment numbers creep down, people are not returning to the work force. I don't have direct evidence for the lax work requirements being the cause for stubbornly high welfare numbers in the face of falling unemployment, but experience shows that if given the choice, a large number of people will choose not to work and receive welfare instead if there isn't much economic upside to working.

I do not dispute that the welfare system is far from perfect, and that there are those who take advantage of it. But when someone says "Welfare people are yes lazy" (Birdguy's exact words), as if that applies to each and every one of them, I will definitely dispute that.
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23-08-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 06:04 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  , all of you enjoyed pointing out that I should have gone to college and it is all my fault

(22-08-2017 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm pretty sure I pointed out that it would be better for one of you to stop working and drop below the poverty line so you could go on medicaid and welfare.

(23-08-2017 06:04 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Except I corrected the situation. We are both insured and we both work. No need to become a leech. You are saying that these people are choosing to stay below the poverty line because it is better than being just above it, which by definition makes them leeches.

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that not all of us said you should have gone to college, because some of us realize how ridiculous that sounds.

#sigh
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23-08-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 11:02 AM)BryanS Wrote:  We have seen welfare numbers drastically fall when work requirements were implemented in the late 90s when the GOP passed and Clinton eventually signed into law welfare reform. So, while not "all" of them, at least before welfare reform, something like "half of them" was probably more accurate.

When Obama took office, he took action to greatly increase work requirement exemptions as they were requested by states, in part to address the economy that blew up. But the result has been that as unemployment numbers creep down, people are not returning to the work force. I don't have direct evidence for the lax work requirements being the cause for stubbornly high welfare numbers in the face of falling unemployment, but experience shows that if given the choice, a large number of people will choose not to work and receive welfare instead if there isn't much economic upside to working.

I do not dispute that the welfare system is far from perfect, and that there are those who take advantage of it. But when someone says "Welfare people are yes lazy" (Birdguy's exact words), as if that applies to each and every one of them, I will definitely dispute that.

I can agree with that. So far, nobody seems to have a good way to address the problem of the lack of good paying jobs for people without high skill level. In some cases, people are ignoring opportunities in the skilled trades--those fields are perpetually short of willing laborers and often pay great wages.

But beyond that, too many jobs do not provide much economic benefit to work. I wouldn't call someone lazy who does not want to work 40 hours a week for a $5000 annual increase in earnings over welfare. Many of those people are doing side jobs or working for cash under the table to avoid becoming ineligible for welfare. This black market is also not very good for our economy, but it exists.

We have not found a solution to automation and IT putting vast numbers of previously required unskilled laborers out of work. And with automation competing with human labor, raising the minimum wage is not a good solution since it tips companies even further down the path of replacing human labor with automation. Trump's focus on the eroding labor market for the middle class got him elected, but nomatter how many Foxconns and manufacturing jobs Trump can tout as economic success, the numbers pale in comparison to the jobs already lost.
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23-08-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:23 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 11:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I do not dispute that the welfare system is far from perfect, and that there are those who take advantage of it. But when someone says "Welfare people are yes lazy" (Birdguy's exact words), as if that applies to each and every one of them, I will definitely dispute that.

I can agree with that. So far, nobody seems to have a good way to address the problem of the lack of good paying jobs for people without high skill level. In some cases, people are ignoring opportunities in the skilled trades--those fields are perpetually short of willing laborers and often pay great wages.

But beyond that, too many jobs do not provide much economic benefit to work. I wouldn't call someone lazy who does not want to work 40 hours a week for a $5000 annual increase in earnings over welfare. Many of those people are doing side jobs or working for cash under the table to avoid becoming ineligible for welfare. This black market is also not very good for our economy, but it exists.

We have not found a solution to automation and IT putting vast numbers of previously required unskilled laborers out of work. And with automation competing with human labor, raising the minimum wage is not a good solution since it tips companies even further down the path of replacing human labor with automation. Trump's focus on the eroding labor market for the middle class got him elected, but nomatter how many Foxconns and manufacturing jobs Trump can tout as economic success, the numbers pale in comparison to the jobs already lost.

The ones working under the table need to be stopped. You should not be able to live better than someone working a legit full time job or in some cases 2 full time jobs if part of your income comes from welfare. As far as jobs not paying enough, you all said my work situation was my fault. It must therefore be their fault as well. It doesn't work both ways.
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23-08-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:27 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  The ones working under the table need to be stopped. You should not be able to live better than someone working a legit full time job or in some cases 2 full time jobs if part of your income comes from welfare. As far as jobs not paying enough, you all said my work situation was my fault. It must therefore be their fault as well. It doesn't work both ways.

Yes, able-bodied people who can work should be required to do so rather than receiving welfare. But that doesn't mean everyone is lazy who is on welfare.

And not "all" of us said everything is your fault. No need for a martyr complex.
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23-08-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:23 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 11:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I do not dispute that the welfare system is far from perfect, and that there are those who take advantage of it. But when someone says "Welfare people are yes lazy" (Birdguy's exact words), as if that applies to each and every one of them, I will definitely dispute that.

I can agree with that. So far, nobody seems to have a good way to address the problem of the lack of good paying jobs for people without high skill level. In some cases, people are ignoring opportunities in the skilled trades--those fields are perpetually short of willing laborers and often pay great wages.

But beyond that, too many jobs do not provide much economic benefit to work. I wouldn't call someone lazy who does not want to work 40 hours a week for a $5000 annual increase in earnings over welfare. Many of those people are doing side jobs or working for cash under the table to avoid becoming ineligible for welfare. This black market is also not very good for our economy, but it exists.

We have not found a solution to automation and IT putting vast numbers of previously required unskilled laborers out of work. And with automation competing with human labor, raising the minimum wage is not a good solution since it tips companies even further down the path of replacing human labor with automation. Trump's focus on the eroding labor market for the middle class got him elected, but nomatter how many Foxconns and manufacturing jobs Trump can tout as economic success, the numbers pale in comparison to the jobs already lost.

My thoughts are pretty much the same as yours. Requiring welfare applicants to seek work (and to accept it when offered) would be a start; we could also raise the minimum wage (although I'm not convinced that this would do anything but cause inflation) and/or decrease welfare payments. But I would blame the system rather than those taking advantage of it. If I could make more money (or even as much money) by not working than I could by working, I'd be strongly tempted to say "Sign me up!" Taking advantage of that system strikes me as more smart than lazy. If we want people to work, we have to give them an incentive to work.

I don't have any solution to the loss of high-paying low-skilled jobs. That ship has sailed, and it ain't coming back. Those people are either going to have to acquire skills (which may not be realistic for some of them), or we as a society are going to have to eat the cost of supporting them. Manufacturers aren't going to pay someone big bucks to do a job that a robot can do more efficiently for half the cost, and we can't expect them to.
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23-08-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 11:45 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 11:23 AM)BryanS Wrote:  I can agree with that. So far, nobody seems to have a good way to address the problem of the lack of good paying jobs for people without high skill level. In some cases, people are ignoring opportunities in the skilled trades--those fields are perpetually short of willing laborers and often pay great wages.

But beyond that, too many jobs do not provide much economic benefit to work. I wouldn't call someone lazy who does not want to work 40 hours a week for a $5000 annual increase in earnings over welfare. Many of those people are doing side jobs or working for cash under the table to avoid becoming ineligible for welfare. This black market is also not very good for our economy, but it exists.

We have not found a solution to automation and IT putting vast numbers of previously required unskilled laborers out of work. And with automation competing with human labor, raising the minimum wage is not a good solution since it tips companies even further down the path of replacing human labor with automation. Trump's focus on the eroding labor market for the middle class got him elected, but nomatter how many Foxconns and manufacturing jobs Trump can tout as economic success, the numbers pale in comparison to the jobs already lost.

My thoughts are pretty much the same as yours. Requiring welfare applicants to seek work (and to accept it when offered) would be a start; we could also raise the minimum wage (although I'm not convinced that this would do anything but cause inflation) and/or decrease welfare payments. But I would blame the system rather than those taking advantage of it. If I could make more money (or even as much money) by not working than I could by working, I'd be strongly tempted to say "Sign me up!" Taking advantage of that system strikes me as more smart than lazy. If we want people to work, we have to give them an incentive to work.

I don't have any solution to the loss of high-paying low-skilled jobs. That ship has sailed, and it ain't coming back. Those people are either going to have to acquire skills (which may not be realistic for some of them), or we as a society are going to have to eat the cost of supporting them. Manufacturers aren't going to pay someone big bucks to do a job that a robot can do more efficiently for half the cost, and we can't expect them to.

Then we should be offering help/welfare to people that work yet get low pay. If they can show a paystub below the poverty line (which should be increased significantly) they should get help. Whether we just supplement their income or just waive their income tax, that would be a start. Welfare is supposed to be temporary and far too many are making a career out of it.
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23-08-2017, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2017 01:16 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
(23-08-2017 12:53 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Then we should be offering help/welfare to people that work yet get low pay. If they can show a paystub below the poverty line (which should be increased significantly) they should get help. Whether we just supplement their income or just waive their income tax, that would be a start.

Dude, we already do that. It's called the Earned Income Credit. I hope you haven't been doing your own taxes. You have 2 years to amend your returns.

#sigh
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23-08-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: No more lips service GOP/ OP ED
I'm still not sure what the hell live better is supposed to be. These notions of better themselves are rather subjective and odd to hold as glory status.

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