No religion
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24-04-2010, 06:08 PM
 
RE: No religion
(24-04-2010 04:57 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  So...wait.

You want me to get twenty thousand atheists...from arguably one of the poorer countries in the world...and contrast their average intelligence to a first world countries inhabitants, in one of the wealthiest regions of that country?

But, you are generalizing. Of the forty-three studies I commented on, evidentially they mostly use crap logic, as you so elegantly put it. Which, of course makes sense. I mean, obviously all of the time, energy, and resources placed into these studies, by established and highly respected institutions was an idiotic waste of themselves, better spent offering god sacrifices of blood and animal fat. And as a coup-de-grace of my position, you even presented an astounding study worthy of a Nobel prize in its originality and thorough planning.
Sorry if this comes ofF weird I am at track meet on an iPhone. What I am saying is a heads up study atheists in my area against theists in my area! Let's see how much smarter they are! How about this study MBA graduates across the country in every major, there IQ scores are already recorded, ask them at graduation are you a theist or an atheist, do you really think the atheist iq score will be higher?
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24-04-2010, 07:19 PM
 
RE: No religion
To quickly answer your latest question, yes. Yes I do think that the scores will, on average, be higher; as evidenced by the continued production of evidence, supporting this claim.

Also, I feel I must apologize to you Martin. I unintentionally caught myself in anti-troll mode, not that you are a troll, and I feel that we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. As such, if it is possible, I would like to start a clean slate with you, and begin upon a new thread, upon which we may discuss our differing viewpoints in a more dignified manner.

I'm sure you can find the new thread.
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24-04-2010, 07:30 PM
 
RE: No religion
(24-04-2010 05:39 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  I don't really have a bent on nihilism personally. If I want a purpose for my life, then I give it purpose. Just because death occurs, does not mean that those that lived, are a waste because of that death. {Random musings from this quote: "nobody can live with the fact it is all for nothing."}

interesting musing.
first of you substantiate my claim by saying you give your own purpose for life rather than deride it from religion. which is a possibility i didnt exclude. i also do that: my biggest dream is to understand everything in life and get a nice girl house and maybe some kids. a list of things i wanna do in life gives me purpose. i do stuff i dont want to do because it enables me to do fun stuff. religious people perhaps do stuff becuase of a reward in the afterlife. not too sure why as i cant really relate.

second point death is actually that which gives our life meaning by ending it. if there is no end there is no sense of urgency do to things in this life. people will postpone indefintly. and boredom sets in, seeing the same repeated patterns in life will numb people to the point of not caring or wanting to experience life perhaps. but thats coming from a guy who only works hard when he has a deadline. i kinda need the stress and adrenaline to get me into work mode. oh and coming back to my happiness bit by prolonged exposure to everything good life has to offer. they start giving lower values to good things like your favorite tv show becoming boring. and reach there highest point and then fall. cuase bad things stay bad no matter what. eventually people might actually want to die. but thats a idea i kinda despise cuase i also like many others have a fasination with eternal life. i know its cliche but i wanna life forever but i give it a twist becaus i want it to understand the world through the ages with my own eyes. and my bet is on science not god. (to be more precise a way to preserve my brain and send communication through a computer till a substitute body can be made.they are making some headway in these fields but it is still in its infancy)

ps nobody can live with the fact it is all for nothing might have been a overstatement for the sake of my point i admit. doesnt change the fact most cant. and they might deride purpose from more obscure sources. when i walked up the stair today i was pleased but when i repeated the movement in place after i got upstairs. it felt completely redundant though i liked it at first because it burnt calories and that didnt change but my goal to get somewhere did. underlying motives and measurable progress. thats also why most like small concrete goals rather than large abstract ones. i'll get a girlfriend is less achievable than i'll go on a date. and the latter is easier to define as succesful.
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24-04-2010, 07:39 PM
 
RE: No religion
Hah, you and I both. ^_^ Interesting how our approaches appear to mirror one another.

I strongly disagree with those who advocate for eternal life becoming a monotonous nightmare; to them I say, what is wrong with you? There is simply too much to do, see, explore, just everything, there simply isn't enough time. Even if I were to live unto the {end} of this universe, I highly doubt that I would be satisfied with just witnessing everything that I did.

I was going to continue with another few paragraphs, but the mental sentence holder that I was using seems to have become lost...perhaps it will return later, but as of right now this is what you're getting. >_<
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24-04-2010, 07:41 PM
RE: No religion
(24-04-2010 07:39 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  I strongly disagree with those who advocate for eternal life becoming a monotonous nightmare; to them I say, what is wrong with you? There is simply too much to do, see, explore, just everything, there simply isn't enough time. Even if I were to live unto the {end} of this universe, I highly doubt that I would be satisfied with just witnessing everything that I did.

That's the problem, though, isn't it? It's eternal life, not just life until the end of this universe. You would eventually run out of things to do, simply because you have an infinite amount of time to do it all in.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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24-04-2010, 07:48 PM
 
RE: No religion
Fair enough, I was using the term 'eternal life' without thinking about it; and yes, what you say does hold merit. Perhaps some rephrasing is in order?

It's still rather up in the air, as to the nature of the universes death. Will we be seeing a heat death? Big Crunch? Multiverse? The theories abound, and each has some reasonable evidence to support them. Personally, I am inclined towards the heat death theory, wherein borderline perfect dilution of matter will occur, and from that a reset of the universe via quantum fluctuations, triggering a new big bang. However, I also support the multiverse theory, as such, I suppose in theory one could simply jump ship in order to weather the 'storm' and then return when things cool down.

Obviously when I said eternal life, I wasn't implying it to mean after the universe {ends} we would still be around, within that very same universe, as that is rather illogical.
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24-04-2010, 07:50 PM
 
RE: No religion
(24-04-2010 07:19 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  To quickly answer your latest question, yes. Yes I do think that the scores will, on average, be higher; as evidenced by the continued production of evidence, supporting this claim.

Also, I feel I must apologize to you Martin. I unintentionally caught myself in anti-troll mode, not that you are a troll, and I feel that we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. As such, if it is possible, I would like to start a clean slate with you, and begin upon a new thread, upon which we may discuss our differing viewpoints in a more dignified manner.

I'm sure you can find the new thread.

And I call Bullshit, prove it anyway you can! You spent ZERO time looking up the Messiah of Atheism, Richard Dawkins study, yet you follow him blindly, what does that sound like? There is no evidence to support your claim! Do a heads up study or support your claim.
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24-04-2010, 08:00 PM
 
RE: No religion
Ouch, that was uncalled for in my eyes; I was not attempting to antagonize you with the above quote.

Technically I did spend 'some' time looking up a study. Why did I choose a study done by Richard Dawkins? Actually, I was debating whether or not to use the quote I found, which I did end up using, simply because it 'was' Richard Dawkins. However, the other quote I was considering, was from a lesser known researcher, as such, I felt it more prudent to use the quote from the better known individual, in order to give more credibility to my response.

Do I follow Richard Dawkins? Hmm, to be honest, that is a tough one, but, I will have to say no to that one. There has been many times, when I have been reading some of his literature, that I have disagreed with what he has said. On the other hand, I do agree, in general, with what he is doing. Similarly, I appreciate what the Mormons are doing; going around door to door, and talking to people. Even if it is about conversion, what they are doing, in my eyes, is effectively trying to strengthen the community.

Yes, the way you describe it, it certainly does sound like a Christian blindly following Jesus around.

Yes, there is evidence to support my claim...as, my claim was made with the supporting evidence.

Regretfully, I have neither the time, nor resources, to undertake such an extensive study, as interesting as it would truly be. On the other hand, I can do the alternative that you so graciously offered me, and that is to support my claim. Will I do it right now? Hmm, to be honest, I do not feel like doing so today. I will on the other hand, attempt to do a lengthy research into the area that you requested I support, and present it to you in a research-esque response to this thread, later next week.
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24-04-2010, 08:21 PM
 
RE: No religion
(24-04-2010 05:10 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(24-04-2010 04:14 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Need to show me the studies, don't want to generalize, because I haven't seen all 43 studies, but they are crap. I live here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coto_de_Caza,_California

Median family income is $141,598.00. Top 10% of income in the US. Guaranteed the people have above average IQ's.

This Church is 3 miles from me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddleback_Church

It is made up of people from my community and others that surround us which also are wealthy areas. Give the 20,000 people that go to Saddleback each week an IQ test, and if you can drum up 20,000 atheists in my area, give them IQ tests and they will be the same. Most studies will use something like this; Angola, 80% of the people said that religion was very important to them, but the average IQ was a lowly 69. In Bangladesh 88% of the people said that religion was very important to them and their IQ was higher but still only an average of 81. Go find 20,000 atheists from that country and give them an IQ test and match it against the church IQ from my area and we will prove that atheists score lower than theists. Don't want to generalize but everyone of the tests I have seen have flawed logic, but then again what would you expect!

My guess is you saw that quote in Dawkins book, never gave it one thought and quoted it. You people are supposed to be skeptics and free thinkers, let's start shall we!

I like to think that the two are not correlated, but...

http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...q.html#n01
http://w-uh.com/posts/031226a-religion_vs_IQ.html
Just Google "religiosity vs IQ". I'm hard pressed to find anything that doesn't show a negative correlation. Of course, correlation doesn't equal causation. And this study was by country I believe, so there are several factors, and the US is one of the smartest countries despite it's religion.

I don't mean to offend you Martin, though I'm sure I will, but I found this funny.
[Image: logical.jpg]
And Ceryle, your new and may I be one of the first to welcome you to the dark side. Don't forget, we have the cookies.

Sorry, but you proved multiple points! No thinking on your part as you can only Google! You showed the countries I mentioned. Listen all you hyper intelligent atheists!!!! Prove to me, a stupid theist that the graduates from whatever school you go to, from high school to college, that atheists have a higher IQ than theists. Really not that hard, so go tie your thinking caps on and get busy!!!
(24-04-2010 08:00 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  Ouch, that was uncalled for in my eyes; I was not attempting to antagonize you with the above quote.

Technically I did spend 'some' time looking up a study. Why did I choose a study done by Richard Dawkins? Actually, I was debating whether or not to use the quote I found, which I did end up using, simply because it 'was' Richard Dawkins. However, the other quote I was considering, was from a lesser known researcher, as such, I felt it more prudent to use the quote from the better known individual, in order to give more credibility to my response.

Do I follow Richard Dawkins? Hmm, to be honest, that is a tough one, but, I will have to say no to that one. There has been many times, when I have been reading some of his literature, that I have disagreed with what he has said. On the other hand, I do agree, in general, with what he is doing. Similarly, I appreciate what the Mormons are doing; going around door to door, and talking to people. Even if it is about conversion, what they are doing, in my eyes, is effectively trying to strengthen the community.

Yes, the way you describe it, it certainly does sound like a Christian blindly following Jesus around.

Yes, there is evidence to support my claim...as, my claim was made with the supporting evidence.

Regretfully, I have neither the time, nor resources, to undertake such an extensive study, as interesting as it would truly be. On the other hand, I can do the alternative that you so graciously offered me, and that is to support my claim. Will I do it right now? Hmm, to be honest, I do not feel like doing so today. I will on the other hand, attempt to do a lengthy research into the area that you requested I support, and present it to you in a research-esque response to this thread, later next week.

Nicely put, well thought out, and I am jaded by the unintelligent that I have encountered on this site. So my apologies, but I still call Bullshit, show me the studies, let's see the sample groups, and then we can prove me wrong, fair enough?
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24-04-2010, 08:27 PM
RE: No religion
Easy Martin. Careful you don't paint all atheists with the same brush by making statements like, "Listen all you hyper intelligent atheists!!!!" I know, I know, you're only talking to certain people, but the implication is there.

You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
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