No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
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22-03-2016, 09:28 AM
No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
I'm sick and tired of Theists who say that without God you couldn't know anything.

Here's the simple refutation of that claim.

No God can not logically be the basis for knowledge. That's because knowledge is conceptual and hierarchical in nature. Therefore the base of knowledge must be conceptually irreducible. That means a concept which does not rest on prior knowledge. God is not conceptually irreducible. It is defined in terms of prior concepts or knowledge. We'd have to have this prior knowledge before we could know God. We'd have to know what a being is, what consciousness is, what spirit is, what omniscient means, what infinite means, what omnipotent means, just as a couple of examples. And all of these concepts except for consciousness are themselves not conceptually irreducible, they rest on prior knowledge. So there is a long chain of things we would have to know before we could know God. Therefore, logically, God can not be the basis of all knowledge. In order to know "God" we have to have prior knowledge. There's more but this is enough to refute their silly assertion. Some of these things we would have to know prior to knowing God are also the things we have to know before we could arrive at the principles of logic so this means also that God is not the basis of logic either.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2016, 10:09 AM
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
Excellent point.

The claim that a god is necessary for logic and knowledge has no basis - nothing leads to that supposition but wishfulness that it were true. One could just as validly claim that eyesight is impossible without earthquakes - there's nothing to connect the two but a desire they be connected.

The most telling refutation of theism is that theists consistently try to use science to refute science. It's like using a steering wheel to steer a car to prove that a car can't be steered. Nutty.

Anyway, I like your point.
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22-03-2016, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 10:22 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
(22-03-2016 10:09 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Excellent point.

The claim that a god is necessary for logic and knowledge has no basis - nothing leads to that supposition but wishfulness that it were true. One could just as validly claim that eyesight is impossible without earthquakes - there's nothing to connect the two but a desire they be connected.

The most telling refutation of theism is that theists consistently try to use science to refute science. It's like using a steering wheel to steer a car to prove that a car can't be steered. Nutty.

Anyway, I like your point.

Right, it's just a bald assertion. The theist is counting on the fact that the vast majority of people have never thought about the basis of knowledge and will not have a ready answer to this assertion. Thus their argument ultimately relies on ignorance. If they run into someone who has thought about the basis of knowledge and can demonstrate what really is the basis of knowledge he or she is toast!

That's true that theist try to use science to refute science and they try to use logic to prove logic. Since logic is a precondition of proof it is nonsensical to try to prove logic or to ask for a validation of logic which is another thing that certain theists do.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
Judging by the abject crap written in the Abrahamic bible, I'd say the Christians' purported god would have to be as thick as two short planks LOL.

Killing of homosexuals? Talking animals? A planetary flood? A woman turning into salt? God making the sun and moon stand still? The Earth as a flat circle..... ad nauseam.

It's possible to list maybe a hundred similar biblical absurdities, and as the bible is allegedly the word of god, then it's a totally worthless source of knowledge.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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22-03-2016, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 11:23 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
(22-03-2016 10:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Judging by the abject crap written in the Abrahamic bible, I'd say the Christians' purported god would have to be as thick as two short planks LOL.

Killing of homosexuals? Talking animals? A planetary flood? A woman turning into salt? God making the sun and moon stand still? The Earth as a flat circle..... ad nauseam.

It's possible to list maybe a hundred similar biblical absurdities, and as the bible is allegedly the word of god, then it's a totally worthless source of knowledge.

Oh hell yes. Its almost as if primitive people wrote the Bible and ascribed their morals and traditions to God.....oh wait.

The really hilarious thing is that the Bible verse that they use to "prove" that everyone knows that God exists, affirms the premise of my argument. It says that its invisible qualities are clearly seen in the things that God has created. Forgetting for a minute that this verse is clearly self contradictory, that which is clearly seen can not be invisible, this passage proves that we have to have prior knowledge in order to know that God exists. So I can cite this verse to bolster my point that God can not be the basis of knowledge. It is the theist, who is without excuse for claiming that his god is the basis for knowledge when his own scripture plainly refutes his position.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
(22-03-2016 09:28 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm sick and tired of Theists who say that without God you couldn't know anything.

Here's the simple refutation of that claim.

No God can not logically be the basis for knowledge. That's because knowledge is conceptual and hierarchical in nature.

I'd say it's more because "God is the basis of knowledge" is a nonsensical statement on its face and has no actual meaning. "The basis of knowledge" is not coherently defined, so trying to equate it with another entity is rather pointless.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-03-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
(22-03-2016 11:38 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:28 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm sick and tired of Theists who say that without God you couldn't know anything.

Here's the simple refutation of that claim.

No God can not logically be the basis for knowledge. That's because knowledge is conceptual and hierarchical in nature.

I'd say it's more because "God is the basis of knowledge" is a nonsensical statement on its face and has no actual meaning. "The basis of knowledge" is not coherently defined, so trying to equate it with another entity is rather pointless.

Of course, "God" is not coherently defined either. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-03-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: No theists, God can not logically be the basis of knowledge
(22-03-2016 11:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 11:38 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I'd say it's more because "God is the basis of knowledge" is a nonsensical statement on its face and has no actual meaning. "The basis of knowledge" is not coherently defined, so trying to equate it with another entity is rather pointless.

Of course, "God" is not coherently defined either. Consider
No it never is. But they give enough of a definition to rule it out as the basis of knowledge. In order for God to be the base of knowledge it would have to be defined ostensively, but this can not be done because God is said to be imperceptible.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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