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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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01-08-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 02:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I approve only of defense against aggression, nothing else.

Which is a subjective consideration. Or did you ignore the rest of that point?

(01-08-2014 02:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Armed parties raiding homes are immoral, no matter what colors do they wear. But under no circumstances should anyone go and initiate aggression. There is this non-aggression principle thing.

That is a subjective judgement. I can only assume you extend defense to include property. I've mentioned - and never received a response - that by some standards all property is aggressive and immoral. Do you at least concede that opinions as to the viable extent of property rights are inherently variable?

Furthermore, it's the pinnacle of vacuous to say "b..b..but if everybody agreed with me and never did anything bad, then the world would be perfect".

If disparities of power exist (and you are advocating massive and endemic disparities of power) then there is the capacity of abuse of those differential relationships.

Your solution to that problem is to pretend it doesn't exist. That's not compelling.

(01-08-2014 02:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 02:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Either way, read a book.
I'm going to ignore this as always, because you never say which book, which chapter, which page... [citation needed]

It's a general statement to your ignorance. Walk into a library and pick something off the reference shelves at random; literally anything you grab is likely of greater intellectual merit and rigour than your posts.

Read a book.

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01-08-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 01:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 10:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Lumi, you claim to accept science and all, but you seem to be insisting that the only reason people use violence is because they got spanked as a child. Do you really think that if no one spanked their children there would be no violence?
That is a simplistic way to put it. Not spanking isn't enough, parenting is a 99 % preparation and negotiation.
People forget that children aren't robots, they are copy monkeys. Doesn't matter what you tell them, it matters what you do. Whatever is done unto children, such as violence, they either copy the violence or are so broken by it that they are unable to stand against it and will seek a future spouse who is violent, because that is the only thing they know.

(01-08-2014 10:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And secondly, without a state to enforce laws how would people be kept from spanking?
By talking to them and by being horrified about their domestic violence against children, by expressing social disapproval and disgust. By raising eyebrows and frowning. Social disapproval is a great force. I don't mean on the internet, I mean in real life, face to face.
People would rather go to war and get killed than to see frowns on their mothers' faces wondering why they didn't go to war to fight for freedom like everyone else.


Also, in the monarchy thread I asked this;
(01-08-2014 09:11 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  You do have a point that pure democracy is not a good system, because it becomes mod rule, but without the ability to appoint and remove our leaders, what is to prevent tyranny? The best system balances democracy with constitutional protection of unpopular opinions, like what America has.

How do you propose leaders be kept in check if the people have no mechanism with which to remove them? In your lazise-faire utopia why wouldn't some billionaire hire a private army and install himself as dictator? What mechanisms are in place to prevent that?
There is no way to keep leaders in check. The only way to prevent that is not to have any leaders, just job market.
Billionaires aren't idiots. If you'd give it just a moment of thought, you'd think of a plenty of arguments why that is a bad idea. How much money will do you any good for getting killed?

(01-08-2014 10:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I would like a response as to what would keep a multi-billionaire from hiring a private military and setting up a totalitarian regime. Right now we have a state that would forbid him from obtaining that military and could also forcibly stop him if he tried. What will stop him in your society?
Please stop slandering billionaires. They're generally nice people and certainly don't want anyone killed. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Billionaires got their money by not killing people, so they will keep not killing people in the future, especially since it's so damn profitable. Politicians on the other hand, killed more than 200 million people during the 20th century. Please get your priorities straight.

(01-08-2014 12:03 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Lumi.. You listed a bunch of utopias that don't exist, except for a couple in certain areas. Neither women, gays, or blacks/any minority under white established areas have gotten a presence of equality. Do you honestly think they've gotten their utopia? And which Christian reformations.. There has been multiple, some desired their utopia being revelations. That hasn't happened either.

It's quite scary that you continue to state assertions and don't seem to indicate a critical sense of acknowledging you may be wrong.
Wrong about what? Not hitting? Do you like to get beaten up? I guess not. Neither do I. So what do you say, we need a monopoly on violence so there is less violence? That's like RP up here saying that without mass-murdering politicians, billionaires would start with mass murder.

Tell that to atheists who try to win public recognition in Bible belt. Tell that to Aron Ra in Texas. (he's a big scary long-haired biker guy) Utopia or not (I know, bad word), social change and modernization is real. The world is slowly pushed by activism from groups of people getting hit to groups of people not getting hit.

Maybe you didn't notice that I was saying was that people being unable to remove their leader is the cause of tyranny. I'd like to see you name one leader who the public could have removed that committed mass murder. You will quickly find that politicians who can be removed by popular vote do not involve themselves in mass murder.

Billionaires cannot be removed through popular vote. I don't care how nice some of them are, there are people like this.

Oh, and he thinks that taxes should be a a way of buying votes.

I'm sure he would never actually act on this and actually take all the power for himself. No way he would do that.

And then there is this guy. I'm sure he would never use his wealth to install himself dictator...

And the rich will, regardless of if they want to be or not, become the leaders of your utopia. They would control all the wealth, so how would they not be leaders? The more I examine this idea the more I realize that you would end up with all political and economic power in a select few hands; so basically a command economy masquerading as a free market.

So stop pretending that what I say could never happen and explain what (other than not being spanked by mummy) is to stop the rich from using private militaries to take over.

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01-08-2014, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2014 03:19 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:00 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Maybe you didn't notice that I was saying was that people being unable to remove their leader is the cause of tyranny. I'd like to see you name one leader who the public could have removed that committed mass murder. You will quickly find that politicians who can be removed by popular vote do not involve themselves in mass murder.
Inability to remove leaders isn't the cause of tyranny. Leaders are.

(01-08-2014 03:00 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Billionaires cannot be removed through popular vote. I don't care how nice some of them are, there are people like this.

Oh, and he thinks that taxes should be a a way of buying votes.

I'm sure he would never actually act on this and actually take all the power for himself. No way he would do that.

And then there is this guy. I'm sure he would never use his wealth to install himself dictator...

And the rich will, regardless of if they want to be or not, become the leaders of your utopia. They would control all the wealth, so how would they not be leaders? The more I examine this idea the more I realize that you would end up with all political and economic power in a select few hands; so basically a command economy masquerading as a free market.

So stop pretending that what I say could never happen and explain what (other than not being spanked by mummy) is to stop the rich from using private militaries to take over.
Sorry, this doesn't hold water. There's one guy from 50 BCE, one guy who complains about demonization of the rich in America (which is true, you believe it yourself apparently) and one guy who wants to buy votes, which is how it already works in every state. Politicians buy votes by bribing people with their own money plus the money they printed Drinking Beverage

Have you listened to the podcast about Jennyism which I posted in your thread on political orientation?
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01-08-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:12 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:00 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Maybe you didn't notice that I was saying was that people being unable to remove their leader is the cause of tyranny. I'd like to see you name one leader who the public could have removed that committed mass murder. You will quickly find that politicians who can be removed by popular vote do not involve themselves in mass murder.
Inability to remove leaders isn't the cause of tyranny. Leaders are.

Maybe I should start answering questions with vapid content-free soundbites.

Then I can just declare anyone who disagrees with me a neurotic abuse victim and call it a night.

What do you think?

Protip: pretend leader says individual at the top of a substantial power differential (since that is the inevitable result of an unrestricted market), and pretend they exist in your magical rainbow fantasyland. What are the constraints on their behaviour? To whom are they accountable?

If your only answer is Magical Thinking™ perhaps it's time to give this a little more thought.

But we both know that isn't going to happen.

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01-08-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  As for guns...meh. That is not necessary. America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense - and all the cops went fully paramilitary anyway.

Had you said you were mistaken in this or even that it was not what you meant to say I would not be harping but no instead you have doubled down. Thus these words will haunt you.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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01-08-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  As for guns...meh. That is not necessary. America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense - and all the cops went fully paramilitary anyway.

Had you said you were mistaken in this or even that it was not what you meant to say I would not be harping but no instead you have doubled down. Thus these words will haunt you.

I'm sorry, Rev, but what you're doing here is getting pretty close to our definition of "spamming." We can't have it both ways, you know.

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01-08-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Had you said you were mistaken in this or even that it was not what you meant to say I would not be harping but no instead you have doubled down. Thus these words will haunt you.

I'm sorry, Rev, but what you're doing here is getting pretty close to our definition of "spamming." We can't have it both ways, you know.

Don't fuck with us Vos, we'll hurt you. We'l leave out random letters and
"insert random, punctuation? You *will* kry.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-08-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I'm sorry, Rev, but what you're doing here is getting pretty close to our definition of "spamming." We can't have it both ways, you know.

Don't fuck with us Vos, we'll hurt you. We'l leave out random letters and
"insert random, punctuation? You *will* kry.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Note: The text above is copypasta.

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01-08-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Fuker

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-08-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(01-08-2014 03:12 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-08-2014 03:00 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Maybe you didn't notice that I was saying was that people being unable to remove their leader is the cause of tyranny. I'd like to see you name one leader who the public could have removed that committed mass murder. You will quickly find that politicians who can be removed by popular vote do not involve themselves in mass murder.
Inability to remove leaders isn't the cause of tyranny. Leaders are.

(01-08-2014 03:00 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Billionaires cannot be removed through popular vote. I don't care how nice some of them are, there are people like this.

Oh, and he thinks that taxes should be a a way of buying votes.

I'm sure he would never actually act on this and actually take all the power for himself. No way he would do that.

And then there is this guy. I'm sure he would never use his wealth to install himself dictator...

And the rich will, regardless of if they want to be or not, become the leaders of your utopia. They would control all the wealth, so how would they not be leaders? The more I examine this idea the more I realize that you would end up with all political and economic power in a select few hands; so basically a command economy masquerading as a free market.

So stop pretending that what I say could never happen and explain what (other than not being spanked by mummy) is to stop the rich from using private militaries to take over.
Sorry, this doesn't hold water. There's one guy from 50 BCE, one guy who complains about demonization of the rich in America (which is true, you believe it yourself apparently) and one guy who wants to buy votes, which is how it already works in every state. Politicians buy votes by bribing people with their own money plus the money they printed Drinking Beverage

Have you listened to the podcast about Jennyism which I posted in your thread on political orientation?

No, a 2 hour crappy radio show doesn't interest me. (I have watched some of Molyneaux and I find him boring and uninteresting.)

You were the one who said that because billionaires haven't tried to take over before, it cannot happen. I just gave you an example of a billionaire who did take over using his money. But I'm sure he never would have crucified 6,000 escaped slaves if mummy hadn't spanked him.

And you still haven't explained why a billionaire wouldn't take over. Are you going to stop dodging the question?

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