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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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31-07-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Choices are limited? Who's limiting your choices?

Is that a serious question?

You put 3 options. A, B, or NULL. Those aren't the only flavors.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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31-07-2014, 08:18 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think your cartoon at the top is a simplistic caricature. Funny old thing, libertarians come out as *the* most reasonable and wonderful people on God's green Earth. I'm *guessing* the cartoon was put together... by some boy scout libertarian, to help people make the right political choices. How incredibly nice of him Smile
There's a website and a Facebook feed with cartoons like that... But they're mostly insider jokes.
Simplistic? Compared to what, atheism?
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31-07-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  There's a website and a Facebook feed with cartoons like that... But they're mostly insider jokes.

Indeed. The world's great strategic smug reserve.

You know, we could combine an image macro script from that feed, and text from the Deepak Chopra generator, and we'd have a perfect Luminon simulation.

... this is my signature!
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31-07-2014, 08:25 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  By the way, Cjlr, don't bother posting, you're on my ignore list.
There goes one of my favorite pastime activities. Dodgy

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31-07-2014, 08:26 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Luminon, you're acting like a fundi. You know full well that this discussion won't go anywhere.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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31-07-2014, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2014 08:48 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Luminon, you're acting like a fundi. You know full well that this discussion won't go anywhere.
It could go very far if people realized that a Christian is an atheist 6 days a week and everyone is a libertarian voluntarist 11 months a year, except the tax month.
Admit that and I'll be glad. Do not admit that and I will be fascinated. I have heard about as many good answers on my questions as you have heard good arguments from a Christian. Only you actually want to debate with Christians.

Did you ever feel weird when you grew up and learned your money are going to someone else and you get thrown into jail if you don't pay? (mostly it's your employer who pays, unless it's groceries and stuff) It's like reverse allowance. Or bullies forcing you to give away your lunch money.

(31-07-2014 08:11 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 08:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Choices are limited? Who's limiting your choices?

Is that a serious question?

You put 3 options. A, B, or NULL. Those aren't the only flavors.
When you're talking about flavors, have you ever had a choice between chocolate and vanilla?
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(31-07-2014 08:11 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  True. Shit's not fair, but there it is. What you have to realize is that what's ideal is not what is going to happen. Everything wrong with what we have at the party will begin again as soon as you make a new party, no matter what kind of party rules you try to implement. Someone will fuck around and break the rules and take advantage.

Excuse me, I need some more punch.
If they're enough to have a monopoly on enforcing rules, they're strong enough not to give a shit about the rules. I call central power idealistic. Freedom does not fall by one person messing up, it falls by having a violent hierarchy where if the person at the top is an asshole (which is guaranteed), the whole mob will be assholes. Freedom is like the torrent network on the internet, when one server fails seeding the movie, you stream from other servers. Market is like the internet, not a hierarchy. Having shit centralized is dangerous, it's like putting all the eggs into one marten hideout.

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31-07-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Oh, but also:
(31-07-2014 08:00 AM)Luminon Wrote:  By the way, Cjlr, don't bother posting, you're on my ignore list.

I'm so honoured. No, I have long given up on speaking to you for your benefit. You're wrapped up so deep in self-affirming circular reasoning and confirmation bias that that's wholly impossible. It's fun in and of itself to skim through your blather, but it's more useful to other people to point out the rampant fallacies and logical errors.
(and I am told it represents no small entertainment value)

But I guess I needn't address this to you, then.

Hi, everybody.
(hi, cjlr)

Looks like ol' Lumi here has finally given up on trying to justify himself and his ravings to one of the few people who ever bothered trying to engage with them. It was fun when he at least tried to frame his thoughts coherently. But, alas, every conclusion of his was and is based on unshakeable conviction in the sanctity of subjective personal experience. He calls this "rational". He is not good at understanding what words mean. Nor does blanket denial of any contradicting information - cloaked in paranoid fantasies of omnipresent conspiracy - present a way out of self-affirming circular reasoning.

So, after a while, instead of introspection, he decided to turn his deranged gaze outwards, and decided that since obviously he's completely and self-evidently objectively correct about everything, no one could possibly object on rational grounds (there's that mis-used word again). Thus, anyone objecting to him obviously hates themselves because of their abusive childhoods. Or something like that. I couldn't really tell what he meant (as ever), but it was some seriously deranged psychobabble. Link below.

I can't quite shake the feeling that his two years here represent a slow-motion psychotic break. Oh, well.

I hope someday he reads a book.

Before we go, let us bask once more in the glowing high tide of insanity; peak psychosis; the pinnacle of delusion. A blithering incoherence so self-satisfied and off-base we might call it a veritable black hole of a worldview:
(23-06-2014 04:27 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Man, I'm sorry. I must be some kind of monster for pushing your buttons like that. I heard abusers do that. Maybe it's some kind of trolling, teasing or bullying. Maybe I'm addicted to yanking your leg and you're a bit too ready to react. I've been bullied a lot, but never actually bullied anyone. But I think they do it for the sense of control. I can control you, I can detonate you quite easily. I mean, it's still your responsibility, you come with steam blowing out of your ears, it's not my idea. But once you react, you always react, like a robot. As a prime neurotic here, I say that's not healthy at all. I was like that in my early teens, before I understood that bullies actually want that. Abusers get a kick from driving their victims out of control. But even abused people get a kick from managing abusive people (that would be you). They like it as an adrenaline sport.

And I don't think it's really me you've got a problem with. I am just some anonymous young guy on the net. If someone made you very angry in the past, but he was more powerful, so powerful that you could not even show your anger, you save it for later and forget it is there. And then it erupts at anyone who resembles the original situation. But it will repeat indefinitely, because I am not the one who caused that. You are recreating the old scenario with new person (me) but it will not calm you down permanently, because I am not the one who caused your anger and repressed it. You're on a wrong address. If you can remember who was it and when, and re-live the situation, which is rather unpleasant, you will get a hold of this reaction. There's no other way but this therapy. But first you've got to recognize that flying off the handle like that isn't healthy or righteous.
This goes on at some length elsewhere. Suffice to say, no, someone in dire need of psychological assistance themselves is not a qualified psychoanalyst.
(but psychology is probably one of those bad evil gummint science conspiracies anyway, so what do I know?)

...

In the final analysis, I award him no points, and may God have mercy on his soul.

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31-07-2014, 08:44 AM
Re: RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 08:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think your cartoon at the top is a simplistic caricature. Funny old thing, libertarians come out as *the* most reasonable and wonderful people on God's green Earth. I'm *guessing* the cartoon was put together... by some boy scout libertarian, to help people make the right political choices. How incredibly nice of him Smile
There's a website and a Facebook feed with cartoons like that... But they're mostly insider jokes.
Simplistic? Compared to what, atheism?
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I could also direct you to a website that has a question premise: Do you believe in God? Absolutely or No.. If you say no it asks, are you absolutely sure?

Neither that or your little pictures are intellectually stimulating, nor are They valid in any logically ponent way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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31-07-2014, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2014 09:02 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 08:44 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I could also direct you to a website that has a question premise: Do you believe in God? Absolutely or No.. If you say no it asks, are you absolutely sure?

Neither that or your little pictures are intellectually stimulating, nor are They valid in any logically ponent way.
I don't know what "ponent" means. But the real question is, what is God? There is no need to have a debate if we know. If there is any debate or difference whatsoever, it's because nobody knows what the concept means.

The concept means, do you believe in getting beaten up, abducted and murdered because someone wrote some words on paper long ago? Yes or No.
I don't care who or why, I might be an unbeliever in a Muslim town, or an untaxpayer in Washington and I would end up the same, so I don't care which set of old words on paper do you mean. If you support that I should be abducted in a raid on my home because I don't follow some old text, then you are no better than Muslim. You might be a moderate Muslim so that you don't abduct me myself, you just have some more radical brethren in blue costumes for the job.
If Bible is just a piece of paper, so is the constitution and tax code. Only Bible has more followers.
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31-07-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Perhaps the biggest problem with libertarians is that they ignore that the free market can exist under a socialist system, and that you can have a state and a free market.

I myself believe the best system is free market socialism, as it can ensure social justice, prosperity and freedom. Unlike libertarians, who see only room for the individual, I believe there is room for individualism within the nation. Nationalism, contrary to popular belief, is not necessarily putting the nation above the individual, but merely wanting self-determination for your national group.

Also, why I do think a stateless society should be a final goal, it would take at least a 100 years of preparation before such a thing could even be attempted.
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