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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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03-08-2014, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 11:58 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 10:47 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Austrian economics is not science. Say what you will about Keynesianism (I'm not a big fan either), but at least he used mathematical modelling and didn't just pull "economics" out of his ass. Austrian economics isn't science, it is woo. Austrians outright reject the scientific method and data. Disagree with Keynes all you want, he used actual scientific modeling.

If you want an actual economist who supported the free market then go look up Milton Friedman. Of course, you probably hate him as Austrians insist he is a Stalinist market-hater.
Nah, mathematical modelling is useless if half of the numbers is made up by the government employees and if government spending is counted as economic growth. That's what I'd call pseudoscience.

Austrian economics admits that the market is a huge computer that processes more information than people can even comprehend. It's actually closer to IT and general systems theory, only it's so old that people weren't calling it that way back then. But in principle, Austrian economics is about neuron network computing. The neurons are individual persons or business companies, so there is the psychological element to this. AE is an objective method of managing subjective economical desires without the use of violent coercion. It is empirical in the sense that people do already empirically exist out there, we just have to not mess them up with government violence. It's quite a science of removing the artificial problems of government damage.

Government officials can not know a shred of info that is expressed in global market prices, they're like a Prussian king messing up economy by making decrees what will cost how much, that's how scientific government is.
Milton Friedman? I heard about him, of course. It's nice from him that he advocated less state and more private sector. But he looks like one of these grocery bag economists who just shop for functions, this from state, that from free market... I don't think states or economies works that way, you don't get to pick and choose, without principles. There is no evidence that a thing that people actually want has to be provided by the state for tax money.
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03-08-2014, 12:01 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 11:20 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 10:47 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Austrian economics is not science. Say what you will about Keynesianism (I'm not a big fan either), but at least he used mathematical modelling and didn't just pull "economics" out of his ass. Austrian economics isn't science, it is woo. Austrians outright reject the scientific method and data. Disagree with Keynes all you want, he used actual scientific modeling.

If you want an actual economist who supported the free market then go look up Milton Friedman. Of course, you probably hate him as Austrians insist he is a Stalinist market-hater.
Nah, mathematical modelling is useless if half of the numbers is made up by the government employees and if government spending is counted as economic growth. That's what I'd call pseudoscience.

Austrian economics admits that the market is a huge computer that processes more information than people can even comprehend. It's actually closer to IT and general systems theory, only it's so old that people weren't calling it that way back then. But in principle, Austrian economics is about neuron network computing. The neurons are individual persons or business companies, so there is the psychological element to this. AE is an objective method of managing subjective economical desires without the use of violent coercion. It is empirical in the sense that people do already empirically exist out there, we just have to not mess them up with government violence. It's quite a science of removing the artificial problems of government damage.

Government officials can not know a shred of info that is expressed in global market prices, they're like a Prussian king messing up economy by making decrees what will cost how much, that's how scientific government is.
Milton Friedman? I heard about him, of course. It's nice from him that he advocated less state and more private sector. But he looks like one of these grocery bag economists who just shop for functions, this from state, that from free market... I don't think states or economies works that way, you don't get to pick and choose, without principles. There is no evidence that a thing that people actually want has to be provided by the state for tax money.

It is impressive how many old and established sciences and social sciences you can discredit with terrible analogies, no citations, and poor reasoning.
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03-08-2014, 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 12:14 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 11:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This has been explained in great detail to him. He is a cult follower of Stefan Molyneux which is why all his weird copypasta arguments are based around the US despite him not living there and the majority of people who respond to him not living there. Luminon has not had a unique thought about economics of government he is a sheep following a conman.
I like Stef, he posts cool images and says people shouldn't be attacked. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't know what is it based on, but if you've got anything substantial, Stef does 7 hours of call-in shows a week. Each show gets a terabyte of downloads on the first day or so, you're sure to get heard.
I guess people are so isolated nowadays that one can run a cult from halfway the world and tell people to lubricate and whip themselves in privacy of their homes Tongue

BTW, your behavioral majesty, would I also be cult fan for listening to Peter Schiff and Adam Kokesh? I think they deal with the economic and political stuff too. Is Stef culty because he deals with psychology and relationships?

(03-08-2014 12:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  It is impressive how many old and established sciences and social sciences you can discredit with terrible analogies, no citations, and poor reasoning.
Yes, it's amazing what one can do with a bit of philosophy, psychohistory and economy. As a student of sociology, I feel a little redundant. That's why I study so much on the side.
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03-08-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 11:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This has been explained in great detail to him. He is a cult follower of Stefan Molyneux which is why all his weird copypasta arguments are based around the US despite him not living there and the majority of people who respond to him not living there. Luminon has not had a unique thought about economics of government he is a sheep following a conman.
I like Stef, he posts cool images and says people shouldn't be attacked. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't know what is it based on, but if you've got anything substantial, Stef does 7 hours of call-in shows a week. Each show gets a terabyte of downloads on the first day or so, you're sure to get heard.
I guess people are so isolated nowadays that one can run a cult from halfway the world and tell people to lubricate and whip themselves in privacy of their homes Tongue

Plenty of people post "cool images" and just about everyone is against assault. I hardly see how this makes "Stef" some sort of Marx (by which I mean a very important philosopher).

Paleoliberal • English Nationalist • Zionist • Rightist • Anti-Islam • Neoconservative • Republican • Linguistic Revivalist and Purist

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03-08-2014, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 12:24 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:07 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Plenty of people post "cool images" and just about everyone is against assault. I hardly see how this makes "Stef" some sort of Marx (by which I mean a very important philosopher).
I don't think it's something one can see, Stef's material is mostly audio. You're supposed to load your capitalism-produced mp3 player with podcasts and listen while you do laundry or something. Anyway, is there any topic that really rocks your boat? Something you get passionate about? Something you can stand up for? That's generally how you get attracted to content.

For example, first thing that Stefan did, he pissed me off. Well, about twice. I am one of the rare fans of his, about one or two per year, who didn't get attracted by sheeply sameness of opinion, but by wanting to get one up on that bastard. He dared to slander one favorite topic of mine.

By the way, you might want to listen to this, before you say Marx again in a positive sense:
http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/fee...l_Marx.mp3
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03-08-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:07 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 12:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I like Stef, he posts cool images and says people shouldn't be attacked. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't know what is it based on, but if you've got anything substantial, Stef does 7 hours of call-in shows a week. Each show gets a terabyte of downloads on the first day or so, you're sure to get heard.
I guess people are so isolated nowadays that one can run a cult from halfway the world and tell people to lubricate and whip themselves in privacy of their homes Tongue

Plenty of people post "cool images" and just about everyone is against assault. I hardly see how this makes "Stef" some sort of Marx (by which I mean a very important philosopher).


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux





http://www.fdrliberated.com/stefan-molyn...tive-cult/

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:20 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 12:07 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Plenty of people post "cool images" and just about everyone is against assault. I hardly see how this makes "Stef" some sort of Marx (by which I mean a very important philosopher).
I don't think it's something one can see, Stef's material is mostly audio. You're supposed to load your capitalism-produced mp3 player with podcasts and listen while you do laundry or something. Anyway, is there any topic that really rocks your boat? Something you get passionate about? Something you can stand up for? That's generally how you get attracted to content.

For example, first thing that Stefan did, he pissed me off. Well, about twice. I am one of the rare fans of his, about one or two per year, who didn't get attracted by sheeply sameness of opinion, but by wanting to get one up on that bastard. He dared to slander one favorite topic of mine.

By the way, you might want to listen to this, before you say Marx again in a positive sense:
http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/fee...l_Marx.mp3

Even though I am not a communist anymore, and now see communism as a failed system, Marx's ideas continue to inspire me.

The main differences between my ideas and Marx's ideas is that although I believe in the abolition of private property I am strongly in favor of the free market and my ideas are more nationally-conscious.

And say what you will about Marx, he was not authoritarian. He favored abolition of the death penalty, democracy and workers' self-management. He also evaded the Prussian secret police, which is badass.

Paleoliberal • English Nationalist • Zionist • Rightist • Anti-Islam • Neoconservative • Republican • Linguistic Revivalist and Purist

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03-08-2014, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 01:07 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.fdrliberated.com/stefan-molyn...tive-cult/
Interesting opinion, but Stefan never tells specific people what to do with their life. The fact that people do so much voluntarily is quite rare, but not necessarily bad.
Just once he told a caller what to do, there was a married man with from religious family with children who made his young secretary pregnant. But except that one case he just asks people questions and tells them to talk to their parents, which is something parents are supposed to do anyway.

Of course I'll look at some of the links, maybe I'll have a good laugh, maybe I get a headache from frustration... Now, the way I know if you're not full of shit is if you listen to the response.
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FD...2_Cult.mp3
I have no hopes for the Rationalwiki article, these "skeptics" peak intellectual achievement is comparing stuff to peer-reviewed journal articles if it matches.

By the way, you might want to read this:
http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/28/jury-f...hooting-at

(03-08-2014 12:35 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Even though I am not a communist anymore, and now see communism as a failed system, Marx's ideas continue to inspire me.

The main differences between my ideas and Marx's ideas is that although I believe in the abolition of private property I am strongly in favor of the free market and my ideas are more nationally-conscious.

And say what you will about Marx, he was not authoritarian. He favored abolition of the death penalty, democracy and workers' self-management. He also evaded the Prussian secret police, which is badass.
You know what I think about this. This isn't philosophy or a system, it's a New Age shopping bag of groceries, pick whatever feels good. There is no single objective method that accounts for all these ideas. It kind of has to be. If you pick one of the things you picked, you have to drop most of the others, that's the real world limitation.
The good message is, if you pick the right one, the others turn out to be just pleasantly scented buzzwords with worms of violence and bad definitions within.
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03-08-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 04:17 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 04:05 AM)morondog Wrote:  Rolleyes How will you bring me to justice when I kill your family?

You have no money and no friends, by the way. I am a wealthy man. Bodyguards and beautiful babes all over the place. I killed your family 'cos they lived next door and I could sometimes hear the baby crying.

It's perfectly fine because there is no law against it.
Hypothetical questions deserve hypothetical answers. Please ask only empirical questions, bad people don't just come out of nowhere. It may look like that in some of the movies, but these movies are used to relieve people from guilt and responsibility, by tossing hands up and saying "bad people just happen, I ain't got to explain shit".
- If you're rich on free market, that means many people voted for you with their money, because you were very nice and useful to them.
- If you're rich in the government system, that means you have lots of friends in the government who passed some convenient laws for you - for example arms deals for killing whole families in the middle East.

And, you haven't defined justice. This is an atheist forum, so you must use philosophy (or science) to define justice. There is no natural law that a criminal feels a deep urge to travel to Tibet and wall himself off in a freezing cell for 10 years. Prisons are a fast and dirty failsafe for the society, but they are not a scientific solution. No scientist invented prisons, they're social hand-me-downs from centuries ago.

The only real solution is long term peaceful upbringing of children without damaging their brain, towards empathy and negotiation. Which is probably what you never saw as a child. Neither did I. That is, because both of our parents claimed to be good parents, but they probably haven't read a single book on parenting. And they haven't gone through therapy to resolve their own traumas from even shittier parenting of their parents. And as every psychologist knows, traumas are contagious and inherited generation after generation, like a goddamn Xerox of history.
If people are not assaulted and traumatized as children, they are less violent and less criminal. Sweden outlawed spanking in the 70's and the predictions of gangs of unruly kids haven't materialized. Those who haven't been spanked are people who were never beaten up many times by someone several times as big and strong as them on whom they were totally dependent and to whom they still had to show love. That totally warps our relationship to authority. If force is used against us as children, we get used to force as an option, we may even accept and expect it from the society as a necessary thing. But that is not scientific or philosophical, that's Stockholm syndrome.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/...hment-ban/
http://www.thelocal.se/20140110/swedish-...me-reports

Moral arguments are paramount to mass human behavior.
As Stefan Molyneux says, the danger to human life is not a random serial killer, who kills maybe 30 or so people. That's like an hour of WW2 in one location. The real danger to human is the argument that it is good to murder, it's moral to obey the president and shoot people he points his finger at. It's moral to take property from taxpayers and shoot them if they disagree or ship them off to rape rooms. The moral argument that it's good to kill is really dangerous and needs to be examined. This argument can not be universal, because two people in the same room can't fulfill it simultaneously, there will always be one killer and one killed even if it was somehow moral. So killing can't be a rule for everyone and if it's not for everyone, it can't be moral. If it's moral to obey the law or president and kill people, then a guy in a coma is immoral.

Just something I heard around 122 minutes here:
http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/309/call-in...2-2006-4pm

So your solution to my proposed conundrum is that bad people such as myself will not exist because of your magical not spanking solution.

You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?

You sir, are a special kind of special.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2014, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 01:36 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  So your solution to my proposed conundrum is that bad people such as myself will not exist because of your magical not spanking solution.

You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?

You sir, are a special kind of special.

[Image: 48b5d5627d58925b8e6ccdd4929892e2.jpg]

I think you believe in magic, not me. You believe in the magic gun that makes people do good! Here is the argument and I think it's pretty damn bulletproof, pun intended.
Care to respond to that?
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FD...ic_Gun.mp3
According to you, people will not do good, unless compelled by force. We live in democracy and people want to have gun pointed at them to do good, yet they don't do good of their own will. The magic gun makes them do good and they choose that. It's nonsense but that's what you believe in.
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