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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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03-08-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 11:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This has been explained in great detail to him. He is a cult follower of Stefan Molyneux which is why all his weird copypasta arguments are based around the US despite him not living there and the majority of people who respond to him not living there. Luminon has not had a unique thought about economics of government he is a sheep following a conman.
I like Stef, he posts cool images and says people shouldn't be attacked. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't know what is it based on, but if you've got anything substantial, Stef does 7 hours of call-in shows a week. Each show gets a terabyte of downloads on the first day or so, you're sure to get heard.
I guess people are so isolated nowadays that one can run a cult from halfway the world and tell people to lubricate and whip themselves in privacy of their homes Tongue

BTW, your behavioral majesty, would I also be cult fan for listening to Peter Schiff and Adam Kokesh? I think they deal with the economic and political stuff too. Is Stef culty because he deals with psychology and relationships?

(03-08-2014 12:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  It is impressive how many old and established sciences and social sciences you can discredit with terrible analogies, no citations, and poor reasoning.
Yes, it's amazing what one can do with a bit of philosophy, psychohistory and economy. As a student of sociology, I feel a little redundant. That's why I study so much on the side.

You clearly have read quite a bit. The problem is you appear to have a really bad case of confirmation bias. Your reasoning is almost always suspect as well. You don't appear to appropriately balance real world skepticism with theory and philosophy, which leads you to very strange and untenable conclusions.
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03-08-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(31-07-2014 06:51 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Recently I have heard that when things are explained as for what they actually mean, no buzzwords, everyone's a libertarian. So please look at the pic and vote in the poll.

[Image: 10590594_667094376708419_2980131783438047277_n.jpg]

Someone here doesnt seem to grasp the concept of objectivity.

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03-08-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:28 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  So your solution to my proposed conundrum is that bad people such as myself will not exist because of your magical not spanking solution.

You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?

You sir, are a special kind of special.

[Image: 48b5d5627d58925b8e6ccdd4929892e2.jpg]

I think you believe in magic, not me. You believe in the magic gun that makes people do good! Here is the argument and I think it's pretty damn good.
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FD...ic_Gun.mp3

No you fucktard we believe that rule of law protects the majority of people who would do good either way from the sociopaths that try to cheat any system. Your system has no such protection and would inevitably be run by them.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:28 PM)Luminon Wrote:  According to you, people will not do good, unless compelled by force. We live in democracy and people want to have gun pointed at them to do good, yet they don't do good of their own will. The magic gun makes them do good and they choose that. It's nonsense but that's what you believe in.

You can read minds now? You are putting words in my mouth, oh wise one. Not a tactic that is likely to win friends and influence people.

I decline to listen to your mp3. Why don't *you* make the argument?

You haven't answered my question by the way, this one: "You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?" You cannot answer? Or you won't?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No you fucktard we believe that rule of law protects the majority of people who would do good either way from the sociopaths that try to cheat any system. Your system has no such protection and would inevitably be run by them.
Good point! I have a great news for you: the market is not a system. It is an environment, a set of tools to build any kind of non-violent system you want, voluntary association or business scheme you want. If you can think of a business scheme that is cheatproof, great! Do it. People come up with crowdfunding, pay per view, subscriptions, donationware and many other inventions all the time and they're doing great without the government.

In one of my school papers I have called the Austrian economics a "metasystem" or "metalanguage" as compared to fixed scheme solutions like centrally planned economy. I meant the same thing.
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03-08-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:46 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 01:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No you fucktard we believe that rule of law protects the majority of people who would do good either way from the sociopaths that try to cheat any system. Your system has no such protection and would inevitably be run by them.
Good point! I have a great news for you: the market is not a system. It is an environment, a set of tools to build any kind of non-violent system you want, voluntary association or business scheme you want. If you can think of a business scheme that is cheatproof, great! Do it. People come up with crowdfunding, pay per view, subscriptions, donationware and many other inventions all the time and they're doing great without the government.

In one of my school papers I have called the Austrian economics a "metasystem" or "metalanguage" as compared to fixed scheme solutions like centrally planned economy. I meant the same thing.

Exactly you have no protection from exploitation. So therefore whoever can exploit the system will and there is not a thing you would be able to do to stop them. Austrian economics is bunk it does not work in the real world as opposed to keynesian economics which you don't like because it shows how bad your system is.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:46 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Good point!

Do you have any idea how condacending you are when you constantly talk to people as if they were 12 year olds!?
Quote:I have a great news for you: the market is not a system. It is an environment,

Climate is not a system - it is an enviorment!
Athmosphere is not an enviorment - it is a system!
Oranges are not fruits - they are round organic materials!

Nobody is interested in playing definition games!

Quote:the market is not a system. It is an environment, a set of tools to build any kind of non-violent system you want,


[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=1100555&...1355615447]

Quote:voluntary association or business scheme you want. If you can think of a business scheme that is cheatproof, great! Do it. People come up with crowdfunding, pay per view, subscriptions, donationware and many other inventions all the time and they're doing great without the government.

Good for them.

Some people live without ever getting cancer.

So let`s stop cancer research!

Quote:In one of my school papers I have called the Austrian economics a "metasystem"

.....................

Quote: or "metalanguage" as compared to fixed scheme solutions like centrally planned economy. I meant the same thing.

And we have a central planned economy?

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03-08-2014, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 02:41 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  You can read minds now? You are putting words in my mouth, oh wise one. Not a tactic that is likely to win friends and influence people.

I decline to listen to your mp3. Why don't *you* make the argument?
I thought I did, below the mp3. In democracy, people are told that they require masters with guns to do good. But in democracy, people vote for the masters with guns as something that they actually want, that is the point of democracy. So if people want to do good, why don't they just do good without violence, without taxes? Why these people in charge of the police who make so good arguments why we need to be held at gunpoint and donate money to the state to do good, why don't these people go doing charity and activism without guns? Surely they could convince people to do good voluntarily.

(03-08-2014 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  You haven't answered my question by the way, this one: "You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?" You cannot answer? Or you won't?
I thought I did answer that one.
It's a hypothetical question. I answered, not today! Today almost everyone alive grew up severely spanked, abandoned and traumatized by parents and compulsory state schools that didn't change since the 18th century. Such people are not ready for life without government and police. If government was erased overnight, it would probably end up like in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was executed. Religious sects started fighting for power. At best, people would just raise an eyebrow, shrug, set up a smaller government and in 50 - 200 years or so it would grow huge again, like it happened with USA.

Obviously, government will not disappear overnight, there will be some social upheavals and economic crises. During these processes people will learn self-reliance and there is be activism and education from anarchists about non-violent parenting. Dollar-based governments are doomed no matter what. What is important is spreading these ideas and understanding.

(03-08-2014 01:54 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Do you have any idea how condacending you are when you constantly talk to people as if they were 12 year olds!?
You might want to double-check if that's really me you're reacting to.
Where is that feeling coming from? Think what happened to you when you were 12 years old. We all met our share of shitty government teachers.

(03-08-2014 01:54 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Climate is not a system - it is an enviorment!
Athmosphere is not an enviorment - it is a system!
Oranges are not fruits - they are round organic materials!

Nobody is interested in playing definition games!
In this context, I meant system as "telling people exactly what to do". Market doesn't tell you what to do, but it gives you a lot of instruments to do things you otherwise couldn't. Such as prices, products and services.

(03-08-2014 01:54 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Good for them.

Some people live without ever getting cancer.

So let`s stop cancer research!
WTF? Government is the cancer!

(03-08-2014 01:54 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  And we have a central planned economy?
Yes, that's right! It's called the public sector.


(03-08-2014 01:29 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You clearly have read quite a bit. The problem is you appear to have a really bad case of confirmation bias. Your reasoning is almost always suspect as well. You don't appear to appropriately balance real world skepticism with theory and philosophy, which leads you to very strange and untenable conclusions.
Will you forgive me one allegory?
Well, if you were a doctor in medieval ages, and there was a plague, all you'd be saying is "plague, plague everywhere. The whole world's gone bubonic." If you traveled across whole Europe and every village you visited was half dead with plague, you might very easily gather a big confirmation bias by not having any null hypothesis or evidence to the contrary.

Just like such a doctor would hardly meet any healthy, clear-skinned people, I have trouble finding any people who are spontaneous, curious, not afraid to show vulnerability and not compulsively defensive of themselves and of institutions that prey upon them. Such a doctor, if he was not in fact a doctor, would be convinced that this is how healthy people are, this is human nature, to get defensive, outraged and irritated, cynical, fatalistic, sarcastic, accusatory, hedonistic, compulsive, dissociated and avoidant. I say this isn't human nature, it's trauma of not being treated like a person since the earliest age.
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03-08-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 01:56 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  You can read minds now? You are putting words in my mouth, oh wise one. Not a tactic that is likely to win friends and influence people.

I decline to listen to your mp3. Why don't *you* make the argument?
I thought I did, below the mp3. In democracy, people are told that they require masters with guns to do good. But in democracy, people vote for the masters with guns as something that they actually want, that is the point of democracy. So if people want to do good, why don't they just do good without violence, without taxes? Why these people in charge of the police who make so good arguments why we need to be held at gunpoint and donate money to the state to do good, why don't these people go doing charity and activism without guns? Surely they could convince people to do good voluntarily.
You "made the argument" by telling me what I believe. Not smart, old bean. It makes me dislike you.

Politics is not about doing good either. You might like it to be, but that is definitely not the reality. Politics and human nature is *all* about selfishness. Interest groups want to advance their cause at the expense of others all the time. That is *why* we have different political systems - the best ones try to ensure that no one interest group *can* dominate the others.

Anarchy has no protection against that - as you admit later in your post, when you say that if we turned into anarchy right now then due to all of us poor lost souls having been spanked as kids the world will immediately go to shit even faster than it is currently doing.

Quote:
(03-08-2014 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  You haven't answered my question by the way, this one: "You seriously think if we switched off government and descended into anarchy today, that a better world would result?" You cannot answer? Or you won't?
I thought I did answer that one.
It's a hypothetical question. I answered, not today! Today almost everyone alive grew up severely spanked, abandoned and traumatized by parents and compulsory state schools that didn't change since the 18th century. Such people are not ready for life without government and police. If government was erased overnight, it would probably end up like in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was executed. Religious sects started fighting for power. At best, people would just raise an eyebrow, shrug, set up a smaller government and in 50 - 200 years or so it would grow huge again, like it happened with USA.
So what you are talking about in this thread is working towards your utopian ideals by spreading the gospel of Molyneux.

Quote:Obviously, government will not disappear overnight, there will be some social upheavals and economic crises. During these processes people will learn self-reliance and there is be activism and education from anarchists about non-violent parenting. Dollar-based governments are doomed no matter what. What is important is spreading these ideas and understanding.

I think society will change over time. I highly doubt that your pipe-dreams are what it will change into, or that anyone can control the process to the degree that you could bring those pipe-dreams closer to reality.

I also, for the n-th time, highly doubt that the evils of society are entirely due to mothers whacking their brats when they act out.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2014, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 03:29 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  You "made the argument" by telling me what I believe. Not smart, old bean. It makes me dislike you.
Then please be more specific. Be a lot more specific so that I don't get wrong ideas. I think there is no way to win with you. You say something that I think is both vague and wrong, but you present it with authority like an argument I should accept. I know exactly what you mean, but I can't get you to admit that.
If I told you it's too vague to mean anything, you'd get insulted, because everyone else is against me, so they apparently must know what you mean (or they're the from the no-homework crowd too). If I tell you what's wrong, you get insulted by me putting words into your mouth.

(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  Politics is not about doing good either. You might like it to be, but that is definitely not the reality. Politics and human nature is *all* about selfishness. Interest groups want to advance their cause at the expense of others all the time. That is *why* we have different political systems - the best ones try to ensure that no one interest group *can* dominate the others.
Consider Nothing I can say to that. It must be terrible to live in dreams and nightmares of domination and symbolic representation, whatever the hell that means.

(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  Anarchy has no protection against that - as you admit later in your post, when you say that if we turned into anarchy right now then due to all of us poor lost souls having been spanked as kids the world will immediately go to shit even faster than it is currently doing.
Anarchy is just an abstraction, it's an effect, not cause. Effect of peaceful parenting and non-violent economic negotiation.

(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  So what you are talking about in this thread is working towards your utopian ideals by spreading the gospel of Molyneux.
I'd like to say that, but looks like I will need to find some actual 12-year olds instead of TGAC. Looks like nobody is getting any benefit from this conversation, no signs of reps og gratitude for good talk. Only I get to clear my thoughts and put them to words.

(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think society will change over time. I highly doubt that your pipe-dreams are what it will change into, or that anyone can control the process to the degree that you could bring those pipe-dreams closer to reality.
Again, society is an abstraction. Abstraction never changes by itself, it is changed by human action. All I need is to find some reasonably non-traumatized people who don't spend all their strength on self-defense from words.
I thought you or DLJ might be candidates, but I was wrong. I'm not good yet at finding non-traumatized people, I don't think I have ever met any in person.

(03-08-2014 02:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  I also, for the n-th time, highly doubt that the evils of society are entirely due to mothers whacking their brats when they act out.
Both you and me were these brats, as you say. Were you whacked too? If you were to get your wailing younger self in your arms right now, would you hit the boy? I have sympathy for traumatized people, being one myself, but it gets cut short if they use it as an excuse to inflict it on others, especially smaller and weaker people.
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