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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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03-08-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Lumi, you don't know me. Please do not play stupid games about how I must have been abused as a child and that's why I disagree with you. I disagree with you as a thinking adult.

Also don't be bloody disingenous about this shit:
Quote:If I tell you what's wrong, you get insulted by me putting words into your mouth.
You can easily avoid saying things like this:
Quote:According to you, people will not do good, unless compelled by force. We live in democracy and people want to have gun pointed at them to do good, yet they don't do good of their own will. The magic gun makes them do good and they choose that. It's nonsense but that's what you believe in.
You absolutely can present that without telling me "according to you" and "it's nonsense but it's what you believe". If it *was* actually what I said that's different - but I have never said that, so pretending that I have... makes me angry.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 03:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  You absolutely can present that without telling me "according to you" and "it's nonsense but it's what you believe". If it *was* actually what I said that's different - but I have never said that, so pretending that I have... makes me angry.
When people put words into your mouth, it makes you angry. It can't be the first time when people misinterpreted what you say. Do you remember when that happened for the first time? Who did that? What happened then?
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03-08-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 04:10 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 03:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  You absolutely can present that without telling me "according to you" and "it's nonsense but it's what you believe". If it *was* actually what I said that's different - but I have never said that, so pretending that I have... makes me angry.
When people put words into your mouth, it makes you angry. It can't be the first time when people misinterpreted what you say. Do you remember when that happened for the first time? Who did that? What happened then?

Laugh out load Oh this is fucking rich. After this moron had a conniption when I pointed out his advocating MURDER, saying I was slandering him. See my sig for that quote.

Oh and Lummy




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 04:38 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Laugh out load Oh this is fucking rich. After this moron had a conniption when I pointed out his advocating MURDER, saying I was slandering him. See my sig for that quote.
Spread the message, oh brother! People need to see who wants to take their right of self-defense away by falsely equating it with murder. At least you copied the quote exactly, so people will wonder what the fuss is about. The fuss is about you saying self-defense is murder and that we have no right to defend ourselves against self-appointed government thugs.
Shut up, obey and die you tax-paying citizen scum, that is your message. Spread it and there will be more anarchists.
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03-08-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 04:33 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Laugh out load Oh this is fucking rich. After this moron had a conniption when I pointed out his advocating MURDER, saying I was slandering him. See my sig for that quote.
Spread the message, oh brother! People need to wants to take their right of self-defense away by falsely equating it with murder. At least you copied the quote exactly, so people will not know what the fuss is about. The fuss is about you saying self-defense is murder and that we have no right to defend ourselves against self-appointed thugs.
Shut up, obey and die, that is your message.

Except they are not self appointed they are representatives of a legally elected government and as has been pointed out You would be the one initiating the violence. Also murdering people for doing their jobs is not self defense.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 05:32 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
This is for you Morondog and everyone who keeps asking about "WHO WILL TAKE OVER" the free market anarchy:
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(03-08-2014 04:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are not self appointed they are representatives of a legally elected government and as has been pointed out You would be the one initiating the violence. Also murdering people for doing their jobs is not self defense.
Anyone could say that he's just doing his job, so others have no right of self-defense. Is that your argument as Lysander Spooner would say? Even if that job involves killing people, breaking into their houses, abducting them, beating them and taking their property? Does the color of the costume somehow reverse the moral nature of things? Or is the shiny badge the magic?

Legally elected? If you say legality is more important than morality, then know that wars, slavery and holocaust were legal (state-approved) too. Legality is a lousy measure of morality and wars are still legal.
Go on, keep talking, more rope to hang yourself.

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03-08-2014, 05:25 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2014 05:31 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 05:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 04:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are not self appointed they are representatives of a legally elected government and as has been pointed out You would be the one initiating the violence. Also murdering people for doing their jobs is not self defense.
Is your argument that anyone can say that he's just doing his job and others have no right of self-defense? Even if that work involves killing people, breaking into their houses, abducting them, beating them and taking their property?

Ok except none of that happens except in your twisted fantasy. Please go find an example from the real world of an IRS agent doing this.


(03-08-2014 05:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Legally elected? If you say legality is more important than morality, then know that wars, slavery and holocaust were legal (state-approved) too.
Go on, keep talking, more rope to hang yourself.

It is, as morality is subjective and personal. Government should never try and deal with morality or you end up with blasphemy laws and burkas.

1 Wars, most are legal yes. Why would they not be? You promote self defense so you are rather hypocritical to decry violence in other areas.

2: Slavery, yes at one time it was legal, then society changed and it fell out of fashion. It is illegal now in most western governments, but of course you want to remove that protection, what pray tell is the difference between a slave and a serf? Your system leads directly to serfdom of the poor.

3: And Godwin nice, You'll find that the Holocaust was not actually legal and was hidden from public view. There is some debate as to how much the citizens of Germany knew about it but no it was not legal.

Legality is more important than morality because one is concrete the other changes from person to person. But please continue to be obtuse and ignorant on this and everything else.

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-08-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Quote:Then did you actually say anything important? Morals are important.

Rights are important too. Morals change from person to person. ie: euthanasia.
ie2: You think it's ok to shoot government employee's, I don't.

Quote:That is an arbitrary re-defining of the word "contract" into some social mythology.
Do you argue that participation means agreement? As I said, if Nelson Mandela accepted food from his jailers, did he agree with the politics of apartheid?

If you studied commercial law like you claimed than you know that participation can be enough to form a legal contract. ie: Buying a product forms a contract between you and the shop owner. They have certain rights to uphold (returns, not mislead etc..). No papers are signed but it is considered a legal contract.

Pay more attention in class, if I know this you should too.

Also, if you want to mention Nelson Mandela, notice how he had an opinion and actively set out to change the government. Maybe you should follow his suit and see how far you get. I guarantee you'll be laughed at, much like how you are in this thread. There's a reason you're on an atheist forum and not in government.
'
Quote:Again, there is empirically no such thing as society, only an abstraction. Abstractions don't have rights.

You're an idiot. Society doesn't have rights, the people that live in that society have rights.

Quote:Not exactly. All I say is, there should be no physical attack on anybody who passively declines to pay taxes.

Oh, but killing government employee's is perfectly acceptable?
I don't think you grasp the concept of the importance of paying taxes.
If you believe people shouldn't have to pay taxes (and as a result, not be "forced" to pay taxes) than please give a valid reason. I have asked many times and you have yet to deliver. "I think it should be like this because I said so" is NOT a valid response.

Quote:For example, I am not stealing from Bill Gates if I decline to buy Windows.

Worst comparison to taxes ever.
You in no way took Commercial law. You're dishonest.

Quote:I disagree. Taxes are an arbitrary obligation violently imposed by arbitrarily chosen people on others. Again, you haven't proven the existence of social contract, nor society. You haven't defined them, described their contents exhaustively and above all, you have not given objective proof that they have the right to initiate violence against individuals.

Yes I have. The good of the many = force you to pay taxes.
You make the outrageous claim that forcing people to pay taxes is bad yet you are yet to provide anything besides "because I said so".
The burden of proof is, and has been for a while, on you.

Quote:Your opinion on laws is both non-empirical and irrational. Laws are arbitrary make-believe, they are opinion with a gun. To be more than paper, they need to be enforced with violence. By definition, the enforcers are above law.

No they're not. They are subject to laws too. Police Act and stuff like that gives them special powers to enforce law. They're not above it.
You obviously never took commercial law like you claim you did.

Quote: Fair is only what all people agree to obey regardless what color of clothes they wear.

By being a member of society we agree to the law.

Quote:Nope, people like politicians decided that they can threaten people to take taxes from them.

This is bad how? (for the 10th time)

Quote:Who maintains the justice on the internet?

Well in the case of this forum, the forum team do. You know, the forum "police".

Quote:Who will watch the watchers?

That is why countries tend to have a three teir system that keep check on eachother. The legislator, executive and judicial.
Commercial law? seriously? I don't believe you.

Quote:Let people watch each other and if they're not satisfied or don't want the goods, let them pay no money. Like we do to with the goddamn fuckin' Microsoft, Apple, Toshiba, Lenovo and Google.

We have that. They're called political parties. Choose your brand.

Quote:- If you're rich on free market, that means many people voted for you with their money, because you were very nice and useful to them.

Or you won the lotto.
Or you were born into money which your family acquired during slavery times from the broken backs of slaves.

Quote:- If you're rich in the government system, that means you have lots of friends in the government who passed some convenient laws for you - for example arms deals for killing whole families in the middle East.

Or you worked hard, went to university, got a degree in political science. Joined a political party, started handing out flyers on street corners and eventually work your way up to a powerful position.

See how this works? You can't say "this has no flaws and this is full of them"
Both have flaws and both have good points.
Don't be dishonest.

Quote:The only real solution is long term peaceful upbringing of children without damaging their brain, towards empathy and negotiation.

This would be a sound theory if children who were never abused never grew up to do bad things. But they do.

Quote:it will have about twice as much money to go around for everyone, which sounds quite good!

See, you have absolutely no concept of inflation.
You obviously never went to university, or high school for that matter.
Stop being dishonest.

Quote:I am a bachelor of law, public administration and economy

No you're obviously not. Someone who has studied economics would have at least heard of inflation.
Stop being dishonest.

Quote:There are two kinds of law, one kind can get you shot by the government, the other kind can't.

Nope.
There are two kinds of laws. Those created by the legislation and common law.
If you actually studied commercial law like you claimed you'd know this.

Quote:As a student of sociology

No you're not. Stop being dishonest.

Quote:That's why I study so much on the side.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so, your "degree's" are actually "what I read during my lunchbreak on wikipedia"?

No wonder you come across like you don't understand anything you claim to have studied.

Quote:I think you believe in magic, not me.

"No you do!" is not a valid argument.

Quote:You believe in the magic gun that makes people do good!

This is stupid.
If people, in your opinion, would be saints under your system why would they not be saints under a government? If someone has a set of morals that mean they behave in a certain way than they have that with or without government.
The point where government trumps is that those that have a "misguided" moral code. The "gun", as you like to call it, keeps them in check so that you and I may live in a safe environment.

Your argument that everyone would behave without government because they have morals is flawed because the government part is irrelevant.

Quote:According to you, people will not do good, unless compelled by force.

Absolutely nobody is saying that here. We are saying SOME people will behave badly unless compelled by force. Which is true. As a student of commercial law (you claim to be anyway) you should know how much this is true.
Just look at a history of insurance law and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Quote:People come up with crowdfunding, pay per view, subscriptions, donationware and many other inventions all the time and they're doing great without the government.

Incorrect. Government helps them via:
- Patent law
- Copyright law
- Fair trade law
- Commerce law
(as a commercial law student you should know all this. You obviously didn't tak commercial law at university. You're dishonest.)
- Police
- Firefighters
- Armed forces
- Healthcare
- Education
- Regulating the market
- Roads
- Street lights
etc.. etc.. etc..

All these things and more benefit them directly OR benefit society directly which in turns benefits them.

Quote:In one of my school papers I have called the Austrian economics a "metasystem" or "metalanguage" as compared to fixed scheme solutions like centrally planned economy.

Cool story bro, needs more dragons.

Quote:So if people want to do good, why don't they just do good without violence

The vast majority do do good, they follow the law.

Quote:without taxes?

We've gone over this.
You obviously have no grasp on the idea of taxes.

Quote:Surely they could convince people to do good voluntarily.

It's not about voluntarily, it's about everyone paying their fair share for a society they participate in equally.
Taxes are the most fair system.

Quote:Today almost everyone alive grew up severely spanked, abandoned and traumatized by parents and compulsory state schools that didn't change since the 18th century. Such people are not ready for life without government and police.

Again, flawed. People who grow up in loving homes can turn out to be bad people.

Quote:Government is the cancer!

Nope.

Quote:When people put words into your mouth, it makes you angry.

He's not angry, he just doesn't want you saying things claiming he said them when he didn't. It's a fair request to me.





Lumy, you obviously don't have the degrees you claim to have. Certainly not the commercial law part anyway. You don't understand basic economic principles, inflation, taxes etc.. and you have no grasp of "government" or "law".

You were abused as a child (you claim, who can trust anything you say?) and as a result are lashing out against abuse. I got nothing wrong with you saying abusing children is bad, I don't think anyone here would disagree. Hell, even spanking to a point is completely unnecessary. BUT when you combine this with "if people didn't spank their kids, the world would be a garden of eden utopia" you come across as an ignorant rambling fucktard who doesn't understand even the basics of what you claim you do.
Not to mention anyone that disagrees with you is clearly "abused".

Your idea of this perfect human being that is 100% good and has 100% perfect morals DOES NOT EXIST! 1million years of evolution, it will never exist.
Nobody here disagrees with you that if everyone on Earth was this super perfect human than the world would be amazballs and we could do away with Police and taxes and stuff. What we're saying is that it's entirely unrealistic and NEVER will happen. People are flawed, you can thank Adam eating the apple for that, creatures. It's that simple.

Your ideas are unrealistic and make you look like an ignorant buffoon.
You haven't once provided clear, valid, evidence to the contrary. You're making the outrageous claims, the onus is you to provide the evidence.
Also, proof of degree's would be nice because I'm in doubt.

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03-08-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Rev beat me to the punch but I am going to say it anyway. You see there is one side in which the government rules all and no citizen gets freedom. We are forced to work as slaves and such. This is the side you are fighting against. However there is another side. The side full of people who can not obtain power through war so they hypnotize and confuse people into buying the bull and making it look as if they are the good guys and those who work hard and have earned a good living are the bad guys. This will eventually lead into utter chaos just as bad as the government one. This is the side you are leaning towards. You are doing no better trying to shot IRS workers or not pay taxes as you are like the government is doing.

I agree that america likes to do horrible things, and I agree america's government are full of fat men sitting in money chairs watching the poor suffer, but I also believe that the government has those who like to help people and keep places safe and organized. Not paying taxes won't slow the government down at all, it will just make people suffer. Taxes go to places like schools and to helping build communities. This is why we pay them.

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03-08-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(03-08-2014 12:35 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  ...
I believe in the abolition of private property
I am strongly in favor of the free market
...

Would you like me to point the contradiction in your position or can you spot it yourself?

Wink

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