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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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06-08-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 02:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't greed for everyone to pitch in their portion for access to the same basic things we all need and use.

Libertarians don't want the government in control over these basic utilities (like roads or security), instead they want private businesses and individuals to fund them. The idea basically boils down to "we believe government is greed but private business isn't". Which seems naive to me and overly (and unnecessarily) complex.
When talking about government, we must talk in the official definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber
Libertarians are for liberty, against violence. Personal ownership may sound selfish to someone, but it's like sex, it's naughty but we all like it and someone gets more, someone less, and there would be no life without it.
When you talk to a libertarian, replace "government" with "force". Libertarians don't want government for the same reasons why women don't want arranged marriages. People put a lot of work and feelings into their private business and taxation is like violation of their private parts. If you need some money, just ask nicely. People are generous when taxes aren't high.

I'd love it if one guy in an office could figure out business and people's needs better than a whole market of competitors. But if such a guy existed and had good ideas, he would not need armed men to force these ideas on the population, he'd put them on the market and become rich just like Bill Gates. Good ideas don't need guns or votes. Votes are a massive subsidy to stupid people, they make a stupid person's opinion on economy as valid as a smart person's. There's more stupid people than economists. We don't vote in science, right?

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06-08-2014, 03:39 PM
Re: RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 02:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't greed for everyone to pitch in their portion for access to the same basic things we all need and use.

Libertarians don't want the government in control over these basic utilities (like roads or security), instead they want private businesses and individuals to fund them. The idea basically boils down to "we believe government is greed but private business isn't". Which seems naive to me and overly (and unnecessarily) complex.
When talking about government, we must talk in the official definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber
Libertarians are for liberty, against violence. Personal ownership may sound selfish to someone, but it's like sex, it's naughty but we all like it and someone gets more, someone less, and there would be no life without it.
When you talk to a libertarian, replace "government" with "force". Libertarians don't want government for the same reasons why women don't want arranged marriages. People put a lot of work and feelings into their private business and taxation is like violation of their private parts. If you need some money, just ask nicely. People are generous when taxes aren't high.

I'd love it if one guy in an office could figure out business and people's needs better than a whole market of competitors. But if such a guy existed and had good ideas, he would not need armed men to force these ideas on the population, he'd put them on the market and become rich just like Bill Gates. Good ideas don't need guns or votes. Votes are a massive subsidy to stupid people, they make a stupid person's opinion on economy as valid as a smart person's. There's more stupid people than economists. We don't vote in science, right?
I'm not sure what tobkaje of this post but you seem to equate government with totalitarianism.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-08-2014, 03:46 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 03:54 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm not sure what tobkaje of this post but you seem to equate government with totalitarianism.
The difference between government and totalitarianism is only in degree, not in kind.
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(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 01:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Of course, there's a funny thing about such reasoning; did you know that all political systems work perfectly with no conflict when everybody accepts them unconditionally and nobody ever breaks the rules? This is what EK just told you, and once again you either didn't understand the point or disingenuously ignored it.
Fucking hell, at least somebody got it. Rolleyes
Nope Facepalm
MARKET IS SAFER AGAINST RULE-BREAKING THAN GOVERNMENT. Competitors back the customers up!
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And the old but popular question: Who will build the roads???
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06-08-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  When talking about government, we must talk in the official definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber

Official definition? WTAF? Facepalm

That is one definition, and it sure as shit isn't official.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-08-2014, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 04:09 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  When talking about government, we must talk in the official definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber

Official definition? WTAF? Facepalm

That is one definition, and it sure as shit isn't official.
That's not a yes/no guessing game. If you know something, say it, cite it and prove it if it's empirical, justify if rational. Otherwise STFU and RTFM Smartass
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06-08-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Quote:By now, almost everyone who had read this far must be surely pissed off, without knowing exactly why. Hint: my presumptious pomposity is not an answer, nor an argument. If you can ask for a definition of wisdom and stupidity in a non-pompous way, well, you didn't and I am in mood for a little poetic expression...

I'm not pissed off. You have to imagine me laughing whilst you read my posts.
I don't argue with theists like the others do so maybe I'm not use to it as much but your argument is based on nothing, you've yet to provide any evidence or explain your point beyond "all initiated violence is immoral" which is subjective anyway.

Your ignorance and clear and blatant ignoring of clear fact and reasoning for what can only be described as bullshit, and that's offensive to bull's shit, astonishes me.
Also, your stupidity to the topics you claimed you studied at university overwhelms me. I got kicked out of university and I know more than you, someone who claims they actually got their degree. Surely Czechoslovakian territory education is not the NZ equivalent of middle school...

Quote:I like Hitchens' take on libertarianism
“I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.”

There is nothing I find redeeming about the right in terms of their politics and tactics. Ultimately that leaves me with one option, liberalism. And as it turns out, I agree with most of the political stances liberals take.

And now you're back? KC's seat is still warm and you swoop in like a disease ridden vulture. By the way, how did that prediction about the forum work out for you cuntface? And yeah yeah I know, 'ignore list'. I'm glad I'm on your ignore list, means you don't have the privilege of seeing my adorable face every day.

Suck a shitlog and die, both of you.

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06-08-2014, 04:03 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 02:31 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  While I myself am a big fan of Nietzsche too, Nietzsche was against everything.

He also was known to say outrageous things just for the sake of being outrageous. He didn't necessarily believe everything he said/wrote. In a sense, Nietzsche is like the Bible -- by selective quoting, you can make him appear to support your position, no matter what that position is.
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06-08-2014, 04:30 PM
No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
I've learned a lot by reading this thread. What stands out at this point is the revelation that theists don't have a monopoly on distorted thought processes. Armed with this new information I hope to become more vigilant. And for that, thank you Luminon. Before this thread Stefan Molyneaux was just some woman hater PZ Myers once complained about.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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06-08-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:57 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 03:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Official definition? WTAF? Facepalm

That is one definition, and it sure as shit isn't official.
That's not a yes/no guessing game. If you know something, say it, cite it and prove it if it's empirical, justify if rational. Otherwise STFU and RTFM Smartass

Oh, fuck off. You continue to make absurd assertions. Official definition, pfffft.


And I took introductory sociology as an undergrad, so your link was pointless.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-08-2014, 04:39 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(06-08-2014 03:46 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 03:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fucking hell, at least somebody got it. Rolleyes
Nope Facepalm
MARKET IS SAFER AGAINST RULE-BREAKING THAN GOVERNMENT. Competitors back the customers up!

That is until one of them subsumes all of their competition (a monopoly), or enough of them consolidate power and collude amongst themselves to increase all of their profits at the expense of the consumers (a cartel). But no, I'm sure magical free-market pixies will prevent that from ever happening; but they'll do so without regulation (remember, it's magical pixie-dust here, logic need not apply).

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