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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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07-08-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:15 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 09:09 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Damn right I'm assuming that. Here in Canada we have a stable, democratic government and it is quite safe. I'l stick with my government rather than take my chances with anarchy.
OK, so you don't want to have private security companies that will compete with each other to protect you better at a lower price, and that you can fire if you're not satisfied with them.
So you don't want to know outright if that mole on your shoulder might be a malignant cancer, you want to wait six months till you're scheduled for the socialized doctor.
You don't want to make twice as much money at least.
You don't want schools where young people are treated as persons and valued customers.

Whatever a band of poor-informed bureaucrats in isolated offices can do with their ham-handed decrees while treating you as their wallet, businessmen on the market can do better.

The issue with private security companies is that they could easily just drive in a few tanks and force everyone to hand over 90% of their income. What would stop them? It would be incredibly profitable.

The way it is now we don't have to worry about that, because democracy means we have control over the government.

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07-08-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:15 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 09:09 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Damn right I'm assuming that. Here in Canada we have a stable, democratic government and it is quite safe. I'l stick with my government rather than take my chances with anarchy.
Yeah, I heard Molyneux was talking, at least Canada doesn't wage any wars. And he said there is a certain pragmatism in that culture, in the past Canada made significant cuts to public budget that just no other bloated public sector ever did. (except Sweden relatively, it's not such a socialist paradise anymore).
But OK, so you don't want to have private security companies that will compete with each other to protect you better at a lower price, and that you can fire if you're not satisfied with them.
So you don't want to know outright if that mole on your shoulder might be a malignant cancer, you want to wait six months till you're scheduled for the socialized doctor.
You don't want to make twice as much money at least.
You don't want schools where young people are treated as persons and valued customers.

Whatever a band of poor-informed bureaucrats in isolated offices can do with their ham-handed decrees while treating you as their wallet, businessmen on the market can do better.

Whatever delusional fantasyland you're describing, it sure as shit isn't Canada. Read a book.

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07-08-2014, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 10:54 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:19 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  The issue with private security companies is that they could easily just drive in a few tanks and force everyone to hand over 90% of their income. What would stop them? It would be incredibly profitable.

The way it is now we don't have to worry about that, because democracy means we have control over the government.
No, it wouldn't be profitable at all.
If I had such a good security agency that makes enough money to buy tanks, I'd just keep the money and keep doing whatever makes money. Anyway, no private company has enough employees willing to die for a paycheck. Only nationalist fanatics are willing to die for free or cheaply.
In a free society, everyone would refuse to do business with violent criminals, including banks. Looting a few banks isn't enough to wage war, because tanks are easy to destroy, defense is always stronger and cheaper than offense. Ask American army in Afghanistan.
The only way that war is profitable is by money printing. And if a private company starts to print money, everyone would switch to other currency, or Bitcoin. Only states can wage wars as a way of living, because only states can print money, because only states can force people to use the money.

And sorry to disappoint you, democracy is not control, it's an illusion of control. Politicians don't know what do you need, they don't know how to solve problems, they don't understand economics and they don't invent iPads or better cars. The only thing they can do is to take your money, promise solutions if you re-elect them and blame previous administrations. The only true democracy is you voting with your money on the market, it's as direct democracy as it ever gets.
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07-08-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:51 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:19 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  The issue with private security companies is that they could easily just drive in a few tanks and force everyone to hand over 90% of their income. What would stop them? It would be incredibly profitable.

The way it is now we don't have to worry about that, because democracy means we have control over the government.
No, it wouldn't be profitable at all. In a free society, everyone would refuse to do business with violent criminals, including banks. Looting a few banks isn't enough to wage war, because tanks are easy to destroy, defense is always stronger and cheaper than offense. Ask American army in Afghanistan.
The only way that war is profitable is by money printing. And if a private company starts to print money, everyone would switch to other currency, or Bitcoin. Only states can wage wars as a way of living, because only states can print money, because only states can force people to use the money.

And sorry to disappoint you, democracy is not control, it's an illusion of control. Politicians don't know what do you need, they don't know how to solve problems, they don't understand economics. The only thing they can do is to take your money, promise solutions if you re-elect them and blame previous administrations. The only true democracy is you voting with your money on the market, it's as direct democracy as it ever gets.

I'm going to ask you again, if a private security company gets rich what is to stop them from simply forcing people to give you their money? There is not going to be a war, because you have tanks and helicopters and all they have is small arms. If anyone dares to stand up or not pay you just blow them away. It would be very profitable, how is 90% of an entire communities' income unprofitable? What is to stop them?

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07-08-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:55 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:51 AM)Luminon Wrote:  No, it wouldn't be profitable at all. In a free society, everyone would refuse to do business with violent criminals, including banks. Looting a few banks isn't enough to wage war, because tanks are easy to destroy, defense is always stronger and cheaper than offense. Ask American army in Afghanistan.
The only way that war is profitable is by money printing. And if a private company starts to print money, everyone would switch to other currency, or Bitcoin. Only states can wage wars as a way of living, because only states can print money, because only states can force people to use the money.

And sorry to disappoint you, democracy is not control, it's an illusion of control. Politicians don't know what do you need, they don't know how to solve problems, they don't understand economics. The only thing they can do is to take your money, promise solutions if you re-elect them and blame previous administrations. The only true democracy is you voting with your money on the market, it's as direct democracy as it ever gets.

I'm going to ask you again, if a private security company gets rich what is to stop them from simply forcing people to give you their money? There is not going to be a war, because you have tanks and helicopters and all they have is small arms. If anyone dares to stand up or not pay you just blow them away. It would be very profitable, how is 90% of an entire communities' income unprofitable? What is to stop them?

Stop reminding Lumi of the inconvenient fact that his perfect Libertarian anarcho-capitalist world would only function the way he wants it to, under the specific conditions that everyone shared the same opinions and values. You know, sort of how like just about any political or economic system can work with an entirely homogeneous society. The trick however is trying to take human nature into account and planning for the outliers, something Lumi's fantasyland consistently fails to address; so there is that...

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07-08-2014, 12:00 PM
No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
@Luminon: just watched a very enlightening movie last night. While I'm not sure it will necessarily open your eyes to the real world, I would be curious to know what you think of it it's actually pertinent to this subject.

The Act of Killing. Do you get Netflix in Česko? It's available streaming.

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07-08-2014, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 02:21 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 10:55 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I'm going to ask you again, if a private security company gets rich what is to stop them from simply forcing people to give you their money? There is not going to be a war, because you have tanks and helicopters and all they have is small arms. If anyone dares to stand up or not pay you just blow them away. It would be very profitable, how is 90% of an entire communities' income unprofitable? What is to stop them?
A security agency is a small payment. If people have enough money for one security agency to "take over", they have enough money to hire multiple other security agencies to gang up and stop them together. That's basic economy.
Security agencies can't even gang up together, because a nation always has more money than agencies, that's why they do their job, to earn money.

This basic economy does not work with governments, because they print money. Governments already can and do take 90 % of money from you. Hell, they took ten times as much! Just go to this website and calculate how much was inflation for 10 dollars since 1950.
Governments don't need tanks or reach into your pockets. They just print 900 % of the money that everyone uses and they arrest the few that dare to avoid taxes in this currency. (and they confiscate or maybe sabotage Bitcoin stocks) They do it so long and so slow that everyone thinks inflation is natural. Nope, it's democracy stealing your money over whole generations. That's why people go to offices, to suck at this money-boob and retire comfortably, not to change the system. To think that you can change the system by winning elections is like thinking you can change the casino by winning a jackpot.

I wish we had the free society and some (unlikely as it sounds) problems with warlords and insane security agencies (who apparently don't understand basic economy at all Rolleyes ). It would be so much easier, faster and cheaper stopping them - and much easier to explain than this elusive money printing inflation hack that all governments use.

(07-08-2014 12:00 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  @Luminon: just watched a very enlightening movie last night. While I'm not sure it will necessarily open your eyes to the real world, I would be curious to know what you think of it it's actually pertinent to this subject.

The Act of Killing. Do you get Netflix in Česko? It's available streaming.
Yeah, I see this movie is available. I've read a review and it says the point of the movie is clear in the first 10 minutes.
What I expect to see is Indonesia full of badly parented men who are in an imaginary and unfulfilled pathological bond to unavailable parents and later to anyone who acts powerful and sure of himself, enough to kill for him. By which I mean exactly the kind of people that democracies and Communism produces in schools and needs for public security forces.

Just so that you understand, I oppose violent revolutions, my idea of social changes is convincing people to do peaceful parenting and reject initiation of force, even if they are not strong enough to resist paying taxes. Just knowledge that this is wrong is enough. No quick fix is replacement for parenting people to be functional - and Asia has some even shittier parenting than Europe.

To believe that dollar can last is as unlikely as if you pissed on heads of Putin and Chinese president and expected them to stand there forever and accept the urination. So the value of dollar will collapse, nations will refuse to use it as a reserve currency and there will be public call for revenge against the govt and governments, US in particular will probably respond by going full Mussolini. None of this has anything to do with peaceful market society that I propose, but people like me will be blamed for not telling you sooner.

Do you still think that I don't know about the real world? I just refuse to believe that bad or good people magically spring up out of nowhere. Human behavior has a clear cause, just like economic crises: the use of violence.
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07-08-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 11:58 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:55 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I'm going to ask you again, if a private security company gets rich what is to stop them from simply forcing people to give you their money? There is not going to be a war, because you have tanks and helicopters and all they have is small arms. If anyone dares to stand up or not pay you just blow them away. It would be very profitable, how is 90% of an entire communities' income unprofitable? What is to stop them?

Stop reminding Lumi of the inconvenient fact that his perfect Libertarian anarcho-capitalist world would only function the way he wants it to, under the specific conditions that everyone shared the same opinions and values. You know, sort of how like just about any political or economic system can work with an entirely homogeneous society. The trick however is trying to take human nature into account and planning for the outliers, something Lumi's fantasyland consistently fails to address; so there is that...

If parents didn't spank their kids than we would all have the same morals and values. At least that's human nature according to Luminon.
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07-08-2014, 02:37 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  This basic economy does not work with governments, because they print money. Governments already can and do take 90 % of money from you. Hell, they took ten times as much! Just go to this website and calculate how much was inflation for 10 dollars since 1950.
Governments don't need tanks or reach into your pockets. They just print 900 % of the money that everyone uses and they arrest the few that dare to avoid taxes in this currency. (and they sabotage Bitcoin stocks) They do it so long and so slow that everyone thinks inflation is natural. Nope, it's democracy stealing your money over whole generations. That's why people go to offices, to suck at this money-boob and retire comfortably, not to change the system. To think that you can change the system by winning elections is like thinking you can change the casino by winning a jackpot.

It's like you've never read a textbook in your life. Do you even know what money is?

Money is "printed" because new debts are incurred. New debt is incurred because the economy is expanding. A fixed money supply and a growing economy give you massive deflation. Are you under the delusion that that would be economically healthy?

Bitcoins are not currency. They're a highly volatile commodity. And hilariously prone to fraud.

By what insane troll logic is someone else making more of something in any way equivalent to stealing from me?

(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I wish we had the free society and some (unlikely as it sounds) problems with warlords and insane security agencies (who apparently don't understand basic economy at all Rolleyes ). It would be so much easier, faster and cheaper stopping them - and much easier to explain than this elusive money printing inflation hack that all governments use.

Contrary to what frothing ideologues will tell you, there are in fact very good reasons why the world works as it does.

Those reasons are not "lol conspiracy".

Any introductory economics textbook would be more than enough to explain them to you.

Read a book.

(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  To believe that dollar can last is as unlikely as if you pissed on heads of Putin and Chinese president and expected them to stand there forever and accept the urination.

No human institution has ever or will ever last forever.

So what?

(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So the value of dollar will collapse, nations will refuse to use it as a reserve currency and there will be public call for revenge against the govt and governments, US in particular will probably respond by going full Mussolini. None of this has anything to do with peaceful market society that I propose, but people like me will be blamed for not telling you sooner.

Ah! A prediction. Vague, and with no timeframe, but it's a start.

I can quite confidently predict a little prediction of my own: your aopcalyptic prophecies will prove to be exactly as true as the books of the prophets in another religious text you may have heard of.

(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Do you still think that I don't know about the real world?

More than ever, ol' Lumi. More than ever.

(07-08-2014 02:09 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I just refuse to believe that bad or good people magically spring up out of nowhere. Human behavior has a clear cause, just like economic crises: the use of violence.

This is empirically false.

Human behaviour is an immensely complicated field and a great deal of very fruitful research is ongoing. I mean, sure, that's what you might call "government-funded liberal nazi reptiloid conspiracy" science, but suffice to say no, you and your cult leader do not have the key to the entire human condition.

This does, however, illustrate quite well the presuppositional basis of your reasoning. The universe has no obligation make sense to you. What you believe or refuse to believe has no bearing on reality. Your subjective personal experience is not privileged and not compelling. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

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07-08-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
cjlr Wrote:This does, however, illustrate quite well the presuppositional basis of your reasoning. The universe has no obligation make sense to you. What you believe or refuse to believe has no bearing on reality. Your subjective personal experience is not privileged and not compelling. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

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