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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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08-08-2014, 06:20 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2014 08:29 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(08-08-2014 05:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  My friend, anarchism is a political position whether you like it or not. You are advocating ideas about how society should be. That is politics. Regardless whether you want a government or not, you are advocating social revolution. That is politics. Get it through your skull. You are taking a position on politics and it is not by any means a default position.

I see that you're still keen to put words in my mouth about how atheism is anti-social and so forth. Drinking Beverage
That's not how I meant that. Not as putting words in your mouth. We both know that atheism is more pro-social, pro-freedom than any religion. So I use it as an example of the same mistake you do with the pro-freedom position when it comes to non-politics. My argument stands, if anarchism is politics, then atheism is a religion and off is a TV channel.

Anarchism in practice is not politics, it is activism. Politics is deciding ideas centrally and uni-laterally (politicians are always the same people - or paid by them) and then forcing them on the whole society through centralized power. Obey what someone else decided, or you get shot. You might also see similarities to the so-called "non-political politics" or non-politics, voluntarism and agorism...

But I know this is very confusing, because this is how knowledge is arranged, you can read the most about atheism in religious sections of encyclopedias. That is like reading about sanity in the DSM 5 or reading about Gentiles in Old Testament. Similarly, I did a bit of research on anarchism lately and I had to go through political philosophies and ideologies, to look for something that is their opposite.

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08-08-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It's like you've never read a textbook in your life. Do you even know what money is?
I know what money is from multiple contexts and if I don't tell you the one which you want to hear (because it's the only one you know), you will think I don't know.

Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Money is "printed" because new debts are incurred. New debt is incurred because the economy is expanding. A fixed money supply and a growing economy give you massive deflation. Are you under the delusion that that would be economically healthy?
Nope. Money are printed, because government has guns, money printers and says "yes we can", it has nothing to do with lending and debts. Government borrows money and then creates more fiat currency to pay the debts or to borrow even more.

That's completely false.

Re-asserting falsehoods does not make them true.

Thanks for playing.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  On free market without governments, there is no overall new debt incurred, because the expanding economy and increasing value of money (deflation) pays off the debt and then some. Thus we all get richer.

That is also completely false.

No competent economist ever has advocated such a thing.

Read a book.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The common way to create a debt bubble is to forcefully manipulate interest rates and thus lie to investors on mass scale that something is a more profitable investment than it actually is - i.e. the big housing bubble of 2008 thanks to which there are now 18 and half million vacant homes in USA alone. Lol conspiracy Dodgy

Indeed. "lol conspiracy" is a vacuous brain-dead thoughtkiller.

There's a very important saying I think you might benefit by understanding:
"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

Just because you're psychologically inclined to false pattern recognition doesn't mean those patterns are real.

There's a process for investigating these things; it's called skepticism. Maybe you've heard of it?

If you begin investigation with religiously-held presuppositions you will only ever confirm them. That's called confirmation bias.

Your posts are a master class in confirmation bias in action.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  A fixed money supply in a growing non-govt economy will gain greater value and it will motivate labor and savings, because, hey, money are getting value instead of evaporating value in your hands!
That would be F from the exam.

Deranged mischaracterisation.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  A fixed money supply is not a problem, cents will gain value and people will pay mostly with dimes and quarters as they used to. Guess what, money are divisible!

You don't appear to understand what deflation is. Read a book.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And if in some miraculous case money supply was lacking, guess what, people may freely choose another currency, preferably gold or silver or Bitcoin based one. In a free society without government black magic, people hold onto good currency, they don't shave or melt the coins, it's reverse Gresham's law.

You don't appear to understand Gresham's law.

Protip: it doesn't apply to bartering.
(protip: you are advocating bartering)

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Bitcoins are not currency. They're a highly volatile commodity. And hilariously prone to fraud.
Less than dollar, actually Laughat

This is an implicit admission that it is volatile and fraud-prone and not actually currency.

Thanks for admitting I was right.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And by the way, the commodity theory of money is Marxist and Marxism is lol conspiracy Consider

Straw man. I said bitcoins specifically were a commodity.

And you haven't said a single thing to disprove it.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  By what insane troll logic is someone else making more of something in any way equivalent to stealing from me?
By your insanity of asking me what money is, implying that you know, while you really don't. If you knew what money are, you would not ask this question.

It's adorable that you think you're competent. Read a book.

Someone else's gain is not your loss, unless the entire economy is a perfect zero-sum game. It's not.

In another thread you fervently denied that there were any zero-sum elements in economic systems. Now you're insisting they are entirely zero-sum.

Congratulations for maintaining such consistency.

I sometimes come close, but it takes an awful lot of fibre.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You mean you didn't know how counterfeiting money works??? Facepalm A rose by any other name...

Counterfeit money is not the same as increasing the money supply. Read a book.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Money are NOT value. They are a representation of value for the purpose of economic calculation.

Yes.

I'm actually shocked. You managed an entire sentence without falsehood.

I'm sure the next few sentences will make up for it.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  By (immorally) making more money the government increases the share of money it has and relatively decreases the overall share savings you have.

Except no. That wasn't true last time you vapidly asserted it, and it isn't true now. Am I stealing from you every time I use my credit card? By your, ahem, "logic", I must be.

Governments can acquire money by incurring debt. Now, I know this might seem like magic to you, but so can you. Wow!

Although, you may find it hard to locate a creditor who will trust a deranged babbling cult member like you to make good the payments.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Thus your purchasing power gets lesser and lesser without even noticing.
Thus governments can wage wars and bribe the nation without visibly increasing taxes.
That's another F.

It's nice that you know what grade to give yourself. Read a book.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Contrary to what frothing ideologues will tell you, there are in fact very good reasons why the world works as it does.

Those reasons are not "lol conspiracy".

Any introductory economics textbook would be more than enough to explain them to you.

Read a book.
Frothing ideologues? There are no such people! Lol conspiracy.

So, you're not even going to pretend to try to attempt cogent responses?

Okay. That'll make this process more efficient, I suppose.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  No human institution has ever or will ever last forever.

So what?
Nothing, I just regret you probably won't be in USA when the economic bubble bursts Dodgy

This does not appear to be a coherent response to anything. It certainly doesn't address the point I made.

To wit:
A) Nothing lasts forever.
B) Ups and downs are part of reality.

Now, I can only assume that under your delusional fantasyland utopia, we could ignore both truths, because Magical Thinking™.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Ah! A prediction. Vague, and with no timeframe, but it's a start.

I can quite confidently predict a little prediction of my own: your aopcalyptic prophecies will prove to be exactly as true as the books of the prophets in another religious text you may have heard of.
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Exemplary non-sequitur. Most exemplary.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This is empirically false.

Human behaviour is an immensely complicated field and a great deal of very fruitful research is ongoing. I mean, sure, that's what you might call "government-funded liberal nazi reptiloid conspiracy" science, but suffice to say no, you and your cult leader do not have the key to the entire human condition.

This does, however, illustrate quite well the presuppositional basis of your reasoning. The universe has no obligation make sense to you. What you believe or refuse to believe has no bearing on reality. Your subjective personal experience is not privileged and not compelling. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Again, more condescending blah blah.

Hey, I'm just imitating your unimpeachable style.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Can you show me any major piece of this research?

You've never provided one single piece of research to substantiate anything you've ever said.

Ever.

So there's that.

Do you want a citation on "the universe doesn't obey your feels"? Are you that deranged?

No, friendo. You're the one making hyperbolic claims against any mainstream theories. That means it's your job to justify your ramblings.

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Do you even know without looking it up what Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo experiments were about?

Yes. Do you have a point with this?

I mean, I understand that you think you're some sort of unapproachable genius. It'd be funny if it weren't pitiable. You're stunningly ignorant, and you've demonstrated as much regarding every topic you've ever turned your bloviating verbosity towards. You cleave to such lunatic premises so firmly that "presuppositional" and "confirmation bias" seem totally inadequate to describe the magnitude of your intellectual circlejerk.

If you were even remotely capable of assessing and processing sources, you'd be able to substantiate a single claim with something more than your own feels.

You never have.

Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!

(07-08-2014 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'd bet you have never heard about these, that's what I think about your education in anything but mathematics, which I am unable to verify, but someone probably should Dodgy

Oh, you lovable scamp you. Is ol' Lumi feeling frisky? Is big, mean, reality intruding again? Poor guy. I don't think he gets out much. Too many big scary Evil Government Conspiracies™ lurking out there. Waiting for him. They might come after him with Guns to steal his Precious Bodily Fluids. His Apostolic Greatness wouldn't stand for that.

That's probably why he's so keen on releasing such a torrent into threads like this. The MAN can't stop his massive throbbing intellect from shooting out hot steamy bursts. Ol' Lumi's just stockpiling excess goo in the intertubes for the Judgement Day he's so sure is coming.

So wank on, ol' Lumi. Wank on. Your self-satisfied self-obsessed self-righteous self-aggrandising self-absorbed self-worshipping presuppositional black hole of failure is possibly the least compelling "argument" (and I use the word generously) I'ver ever seen.

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08-08-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(07-08-2014 04:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Man, I am an amateur philosopher (and qualitatively inclined student of sociology). My calling is to pinpoint through induction the general principle without bothering with instances. Instances are for scientists, principles are for philosophers.

In other words:
"I don't need facts. I have feels."

(07-08-2014 04:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I am a self-taught weirdo, I just don't know how weird I am, because most authorities on knowledge are liars and try to mislead me.

Oh.

My.

Spaghetti monster.

Can you presuppose any harder?

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08-08-2014, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2014 03:58 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
I thought it would happen to me first, but apparently Cardinal Smurf has reached his private message quota and needs to clear his inbox. Congratulations, you're socializing and I don't mean in the red collectivism way! Thumbsup
I'll try to send the message later, but just sayin'.

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08-08-2014, 04:10 PM
No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
@Luminon:

Seems like you could do with a bit of expanded perspective. I think you could benefit greatly by being exposed to more ideas and opinions in the world.

Have you ever traveled outside Czech Republic? I have found travel to be very enlightening.

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08-08-2014, 05:13 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(08-08-2014 04:10 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  @Luminon:

Seems like you could do with a bit of expanded perspective. I think you could benefit greatly by being exposed to more ideas and opinions in the world.

Have you ever traveled outside Czech Republic? I have found travel to be very enlightening.
(OK, message sent.)
That's interesting and nice from you to say, but why do you think so? My head is so buzzing with expanding thought that I can not spare any capacity on imagining what could I possibly learn from travel in the world. So I really need to ask.

There is some skepticism to that, because I am very busily doing self-therapy and learning things about human life I have never realized before. However, it's still very much a WIP. I don't think I am able to connect with people yet, I think it will take months or maybe a year or two.

Besides occasional rides with family to neighbouring states, once even Germany, I spent three weeks in France as a school internship. Worst three weeks abroad I ever had. I got sick with fever twice, my bowels went crazy, I didn't like most of the people, couldn't talk to them, the organization was shit, there was a nasty job misunderstanding, and one girl from tour got ambushed and robbed by Algerian immigrants. (St. Denis station in Paris, never go there alone and never stay behind)

So as I understand it, where we travel is important, but the one who travels is important too. I carry my problems inside myself and changing the background scenery won't help. My subconsciousness is dark and full of terrors and I only slowly enlighten it and conquer it back. Other people and other places... I don't think I'm there yet. But of course I can't know that, because I'm just one guy, nobody can do his own dentistry and nobody can know himself. And you are a guy on the internet who probably thinks I am superficial. I am not superficial, I am self-centered, just like if your tooth hurts, you are tooth-centered. And I am doing my own dentistry, because I grew up surrounded by very impatient tooth fairies.
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08-08-2014, 05:47 PM
No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
I see. Well you know yourself better than I do. It sounds like you already know what travel does to you. And you're right, I'm forgetting all the other people I've seen in the world who do not travel well. They bring their baggage with them so to speak.

Maybe it's because when I travel I seem to see the other people around me in a similar way as an anthropologist. When I went to Japan the first time it was like this tremendous influx of new information. I drank it in like I was starving. Maybe my circumstances allowed me to do that. Maybe my upbringing. Who knows.

Sounds like you may be in a rather dark place in your mind. I've been in places I would also describe as dark when I was much younger. But it sounds like maybe my idea of darkness and yours may not be the same. Who knows?

I guess the best path is to keep learning. Hope I can help in some small way. Feel free to ask me questions if you have any.

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09-08-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
We on this again?
Ok. I wouldn't call myself a libertarian but I do agree with many of the ideas.
It seems that folks can be jailed for not paying taxes.
You can be jailed for not giving your hard earned money away. I'm not sure how different that is from giving the mob your money for "protection."
Freedom indeed....
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09-08-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
You can be jailed for possessing cocaine.
Can't you just feel the presence of freedom.
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09-08-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
You can be jailed for selling heroin to someone who wants it.
Ain't freedom grand?
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