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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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10-08-2014, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2014 01:36 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 12:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  Pax. I jumped on you without due cause, you growled. I also think legalizing drugs would solve a lot of problems.
Maybe it would interest you that legalizing some other things also solves problems. For example, medicine. There is no reason to ban medicine as FDA does until tested. Testing can go on for 10 years, while the medicine could save many lives. I heard in my Austrian Economics lesson, that northern Europe they don't ban poorly tested medicine. They simply put a sign like traffic lights on the package. If it's red, it means it's little tested yet, side effects not very well known, use at your own risk. Yellow means it's tested for some years, fairly well known, but not a ready product yet. Green means common stuff like vitamins and aspirin and well-tested medicine. Various companies could give out such certificates for medicines to better inform customers and their competition would assure high quality of testing.

This was one of examples that my professor used. However, he wasn't afraid to go deeper. We did talk about the trade with human organs. Right now you can only get or donate an organ for free. That leaves a huge room for black market that can get you killed - either they steal your organs, or you receive them at a filthy moldy basement room from a shifty doctor. Everyone takes huge risks and expenses. But in practice, people would be willing to sell a kidney for about 3 thousand dollars, that is the real market price of the thing. You should not be afraid that people would sell their kidneys away or be sold them out - it already happens anyway and people do want a fair price for them. Of course, there's no guarantee that all trades would go well, but right now there is a huge shortage of organs and a lot of unpleasant characters who do the butchery against law and against donors' will.

Next thing was a paid adoption of children. A fast, transparent, safe adoption to well-screened parents who can afford to pay and to care for a child. No guarantee that there would be no mistakes at all, but hell a lot more babies would find a happy home and not stay in an institution. Again, competing agencies would make sure to get the best parents and care for the babies before adoption properly, to maintain a good reputation.
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10-08-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 01:32 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 12:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  Pax. I jumped on you without due cause, you growled. I also think legalizing drugs would solve a lot of problems.
Maybe it would interest you that legalizing some other things also solves problems. For example, medicine. There is no reason to ban medicine as FDA does until tested. Testing can go on for 10 years, while the medicine could save many lives. I heard in my Austrian Economics lesson, that northern Europe they don't ban poorly tested medicine. They simply put a sign like traffic lights on the package. If it's red, it means it's little tested yet, side effects not very well known, use at your own risk. Yellow means it's tested for some years, fairly well known, but not a ready product yet. Green means common stuff like vitamins and aspirin and well-tested medicine. Various companies could give out such certificates for medicines to better inform customers and their competition would assure high quality of testing.

This was one of examples that my professor used. However, he wasn't afraid to go deeper. We did talk about the trade with human organs. Right now you can only get or donate an organ for free. That leaves a huge room for black market that can get you killed - either they steal your organs, or you receive them at a filthy moldy basement room from a shifty doctor. Everyone takes huge risks and expenses. But in practice, people would be willing to sell a kidney for about 3 thousand dollars, that is the real market price of the thing. You should not be afraid that people would sell their kidneys away or be sold them out - it already happens anyway and people do want a fair price for them. Of course, there's no guarantee that all trades would go well, but right now there is a huge shortage of organs and a lot of unpleasant characters who do the butchery against law and against donors' will.

Next thing was a paid adoption of children. A fast, transparent, safe adoption to well-screened parents who can afford to pay and to care for a child. No guarantee that there would be no mistakes at all, but hell a lot more babies would find a happy home and not stay in an institution.

Of course this ignores why this system was set up in the first place, Snakeoil. Before the FDA mercury was a common ingredient in these cure-alls to the point that heavy metal poisoning was common. The FDA is a great example of Good Government.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-08-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 01:32 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 12:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  Pax. I jumped on you without due cause, you growled. I also think legalizing drugs would solve a lot of problems.
Maybe it would interest you that legalizing some other things also solves problems. For example, medicine. There is no reason to ban medicine as FDA does until tested. Testing can go on for 10 years, while the medicine could save many lives.

Christ you are dense. Facepalm Medicines *have* to be regulated. There is zero shortage of unscrupulous fools out there selling fake cures, often *dangerous* fake cures. If medicines are not held to acceptable standards of production and testing then modern scientific medicine becomes an impossible farce.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-08-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Remind me, it's Lummy who doesn't think rich and non-abused people can become addicted to drugs right?

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10-08-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 01:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  Christ you are dense. Facepalm Medicines *have* to be regulated. There is zero shortage of unscrupulous fools out there selling fake cures, often *dangerous* fake cures. If medicines are not held to acceptable standards of production and testing then modern scientific medicine becomes an impossible farce.
I didn't say there should be no standards. I just said, if standards are such a good idea, which they are, how comes people are not trusted to agree voluntarily that this is a good idea? Statism: ideas so good they have to be compulsory.

So your argument is, people have to be protected from themselves, preferably by people with guns, who put the quacks into jail, or whoever they say needs to go to jail.
If people are incapable of choosing their medicine with all info of doctors and medicine, how the hell are they capable of choosing the right politicians?
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10-08-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 07:15 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 04:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  What the actual fuck are you talking about?

You made a bogus statement about addiction and I pointed that out. What has that to do with drug mafias?
Rolleyes I did not expect that you would interpret my statement in a way that healthy people are impervious to drugs. I have never claimed that. All I meant was, healthy people will not be irresistibly drawn to drugs when they casually try them. If a healthy person gets injury and is in pain, and then takes drugs regularly, then obviously the drug will reshape his brain chemistry. But the debate is about mass social phenomena such as politics and drug policy, not individual injuries.


(10-08-2014 05:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  What? Lysander Spooner embodies all of philosophy? Really? Consider
He didn't exactly shape the world.

You have yet to demonstrate that child discipline has any effect on political outlook.
No, his philosophy embodies anarchism, but he certainly did avoid the mistakes of Plato and Kant in accepting power as an argument. Politics and state is based on philosophy, because it is used to justify everything. But all justifications of government and aggression are fallacious.

And when it comes to demonstrating, here's the Journal of Psychohistory.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/01_journal.html
Is it so difficult to believe that parental authority creates the deference pattern in our brain, later exploited by state or church authority? If we are forced accept violence against us from parents, we will accept violence from any authority. Of course, absence of spanking must also be correlated with compulsory public school attendance, this may also cause pro-political views. 9-13 years under the state must have its effect.

Many things are not difficult to believe. Proving them is quite another thing.

Or how about just some actual evidence?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2014, 05:09 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 04:13 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Remind me, it's Lummy who doesn't think rich and non-abused people can become addicted to drugs right?

Those people just don't realize they were abused. Facepalm

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10-08-2014, 09:46 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 05:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Many things are not difficult to believe. Proving them is quite another thing.

Or how about just some actual evidence?

Evidence is for those lesser beings who don't have FEELS, Chas.

Ol' Lumi's already admitted his entire worldview is predicated exclusively on presuppositional confirmation of his subjective personal experience.

Why the fuck that should be compelling to anyone else is another of life's great mysteries.

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10-08-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 01:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 01:32 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Maybe it would interest you that legalizing some other things also solves problems. For example, medicine. There is no reason to ban medicine as FDA does until tested. Testing can go on for 10 years, while the medicine could save many lives. I heard in my Austrian Economics lesson, that northern Europe they don't ban poorly tested medicine. They simply put a sign like traffic lights on the package. If it's red, it means it's little tested yet, side effects not very well known, use at your own risk. Yellow means it's tested for some years, fairly well known, but not a ready product yet. Green means common stuff like vitamins and aspirin and well-tested medicine. Various companies could give out such certificates for medicines to better inform customers and their competition would assure high quality of testing.

This was one of examples that my professor used. However, he wasn't afraid to go deeper. We did talk about the trade with human organs. Right now you can only get or donate an organ for free. That leaves a huge room for black market that can get you killed - either they steal your organs, or you receive them at a filthy moldy basement room from a shifty doctor. Everyone takes huge risks and expenses. But in practice, people would be willing to sell a kidney for about 3 thousand dollars, that is the real market price of the thing. You should not be afraid that people would sell their kidneys away or be sold them out - it already happens anyway and people do want a fair price for them. Of course, there's no guarantee that all trades would go well, but right now there is a huge shortage of organs and a lot of unpleasant characters who do the butchery against law and against donors' will.

Next thing was a paid adoption of children. A fast, transparent, safe adoption to well-screened parents who can afford to pay and to care for a child. No guarantee that there would be no mistakes at all, but hell a lot more babies would find a happy home and not stay in an institution.

Of course this ignores why this system was set up in the first place, Snakeoil. Before the FDA mercury was a common ingredient in these cure-alls to the point that heavy metal poisoning was common. The FDA is a great example of Good Government.


But what you don't understand Rev, is that in Lumi's perfect anarco-capitalist utopia, everybody would have access to perfect information, nobody would lie, and everybody would compete fairly because they all shared the same values (freedom above all else, respect for property rights, 'never' use violence, etc.)! It's almost as if the system would work perfectly if only you ignored human nature!

Oh wait...

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10-08-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(10-08-2014 10:12 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 01:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Of course this ignores why this system was set up in the first place, Snakeoil. Before the FDA mercury was a common ingredient in these cure-alls to the point that heavy metal poisoning was common. The FDA is a great example of Good Government.


But what you don't understand Rev, is that in Lumi's perfect anarco-capitalist utopia, everybody would have access to perfect information, nobody would lie, and everybody would compete fairly because they all shared the same values (freedom above all else, respect for property rights, 'never' use violence, etc.)! It's almost as if the system would work perfectly if only you ignored human nature!

Oh wait...

Aha, but you're forgetting that human nature is 100% nurture based (and never you mind citations), because the only reason anyone could ever fail to agree with his self-appointed Messiah ol' Lumi himself is if they were abused as a child (and this is obviously self-evidently and unassailably true, because he feels it to be).

As to what explains those who disagree and yet very much weren't abused as children, I can't quite recall what he came up with.

Probably Reptiloids.

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