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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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12-08-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 10:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not only that, but capitalism is really good at one thing and one thing only; generating wealth. Now at this point you have to stop and ask, do we as a society want that to be the focal point of all our endeavors? Should the generation of wealth be the ultimate end goal? If the consensus instead would rather focus on other values, such as equality, stability, or peace; then unfettered capitalism is not the best policy. Simple as that. Sorry Lumi, but it doesn't seem like you've won the argument; because first you need to convince enough people that 'greed is good' and should be pursued above all else.

He's not interested in "arguing". Not that he's ever bothered...

His stated purpose is evangelism. No less.

His stated methodology is to begin with what seems to him "self-evident" and "objective" premises and by his "[self-]education" to seek confirmation of those premises.

Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!

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12-08-2014, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 01:31 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 10:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not only that, but capitalism is really good at one thing and one thing only; generating wealth. Now at this point you have to stop and ask, do we as a society want that to be the focal point of all our endeavors? Should the generation of wealth be the ultimate end goal? If the consensus instead would rather focus on other values, such as equality, stability, or peace; then unfettered capitalism is not the best policy. Simple as that. Sorry Lumi, but it doesn't seem like you've won the argument; because first you need to convince enough people that 'greed is good' and should be pursued above all else.

Fuck, this is like trying to talk to Gordon Gekko from fucking Wall Street...

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We as a society doesn't exist. Where you want the society to go is exactly the same question as where can you take a unicorn ride. If you try to ride something that doesn't exist, you can, but it will get lots of people killed or enslaved. It's called nationalism.
The function of capitalism isn't endless generating wealth, it's self-sufficiency. Only when governments print money must we produce endlessly to keep money from evaporating value.

If you absolutely refrain from attacking thanks to the Non-Aggression Principle (and I mean government lobbying), then yes, greed is a good motivation. Greed motivates you to offer the best services to people, so they throw money at you. Nuns and monks don't tend to be very productive, you know.


(12-08-2014 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, they would be. People do all sorts of irrational or impulsive things. People fall for scams all the time.
And people lie, cheat, and steal. You seem to ignore that thinking that all the actors will be rational. Never happens.
Doesn't need to! Everyone is rational when their actions have consequences.
In democracy, people can vote, start wars and print money without consequences.

(12-08-2014 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  What policies? What is enforceable and by whom? If some DRO thug comes to my place to enforce something, he'll get shot.
No active enforcement is done, except self-defense. Unless you shoot someone not in self-defense. However, if you piss off a DRO, they could put you on a black list of known criminals, in which case people who don't want to sell to criminals, will not sell to you. It's their right not to do business with people they don't want to and they will see your name, your credit details, which DRO had put you on blacklist and what for.
Face it, you're just a guy. You're not scaring anyone. What scares libertarians isn't random crazy or aggressive person, it's the U. S. Army and police and public school brainwashing system.

Some day this thread will be a treasure trove of libertarian FAQ.
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12-08-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  We as a society doesn't exist. Where you want the society to go is exactly the same question as where can you take a unicorn ride. If you try to ride something that doesn't exist, you can, but it will get lots of people killed or enslaved. It's called nationalism.
The function of capitalism isn't endless generating wealth, it's self-sufficiency. Only when governments print money must we produce endlessly to keep money from evaporating value.

Governments don't print money. Value is defined by social consensus.

Read a book.

(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If you absolutely refrain from attacking thanks to the Non-Aggression Principle (and I mean government lobbying), then yes, greed is a good motivation. Greed motivates you to offer the best services to people, so they throw money at you. Nuns and monks don't tend to be very productive, you know.

You literally just said the function of capitalism was self-sufficiency.

Monastic communities were, historically, the most self-sufficient social entities then in existence. They developed urban planning and divisions of labour, and produced high-value exports to trade for the few goods they couldn't (or didn't wish to) produce themselves.

Read a book.

And try not to blatantly contradict yourself within the space of a paragraph.

(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Doesn't need to! Everyone is rational when their actions have consequences.
In democracy, people can vote, start wars and print money without consequences.

Wrong and wrong.

Are you even trying?

(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  What policies? What is enforceable and by whom? If some DRO thug comes to my place to enforce something, he'll get shot.
No active enforcement is done, except self-defense. Unless you shoot someone not in self-defense. However, if you piss off a DRO, they could put you on a black list of known criminals, in which case people who don't want to sell to criminals, will not sell to you. It's their right not to do business with people they don't want to and they will see your name, your credit details, which DRO had put you on blacklist and what for.
Face it, you're just a guy. You're not scaring anyone. What scares libertarians isn't random crazy or aggressive person, it's the U. S. Army and police and public school brainwashing system.

So it's a tragedy when prevailing social norms inconvenience you, but in this hypothetical case wherein Chas is inconvenience or otherwise un-accommodated by your fantasies... just fuck him?

This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragically obtuse.

(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Some day this thread will be a treasure trove of libertarian FAQ.

The only thing this thread is good for is an in-depth exploration of your delusions and cognitive dissonance.

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12-08-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 09:31 AM)Luminon Wrote:  People will follow it, because DROs make sure contracts get insured and if you get scammed, you get your money back. They would be ubiquitous and therefore cheap. Nobody would be insane enough to do business with someone who can't find a few dollars a month to subscribe to one of competing DROs.
DROs would try various policies of strictness towards crime and those that fit customers the best, would get the most customers and earn the most money.
So... fuck the poor (again)? Followed by... ooo look, an organisation forcing people to do stuff against their will Big Grin Hey Lumi, the government called, they want their fucken taxes Dodgy

Quote: Most of all, they would invest into money-saving policies such as checking that customers's kids have their mirror neurons growing properly, to prevent aggression.
Couldn't possibly leave out the kooky closing statement could ya Smile Just so we all know you're in fairyland and not the real world Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-08-2014, 03:44 PM
No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Luminon, I want to thank you for helping to educate me. Before this I didn't fully appreciate what I have here in the US. I also didn't fully appreciate the ultimate consequences of the Libertarian ideal.

I want to thank you for showing me how utterly vile and repulsive this anarcho-capitalist proposal truly is. Also for showing me even more reasons not to trust slick salesmen like Stefan Molyneaux. I feel I have learned a lot here.

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12-08-2014, 03:54 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 01:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, they would be. People do all sorts of irrational or impulsive things. People fall for scams all the time.
And people lie, cheat, and steal. You seem to ignore that thinking that all the actors will be rational. Never happens.
Doesn't need to! Everyone is rational when their actions have consequences.
In democracy, people can vote, start wars and print money without consequences.

Did you even read what I wrote? People are not always rational - they fall for scams. There are consequences for doing that.

Quote:
(12-08-2014 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  What policies? What is enforceable and by whom? If some DRO thug comes to my place to enforce something, he'll get shot.
No active enforcement is done, except self-defense. Unless you shoot someone not in self-defense. However, if you piss off a DRO, they could put you on a black list of known criminals, in which case people who don't want to sell to criminals, will not sell to you. It's their right not to do business with people they don't want to and they will see your name, your credit details, which DRO had put you on blacklist and what for.

And then I steal someone's identity and carry on scamming people. There is nothing to stop me and there are no consequences.

Quote:Face it, you're just a guy. You're not scaring anyone. What scares libertarians isn't random crazy or aggressive person, it's the U. S. Army and police and public school brainwashing system.

Wow, you don't get it. I'm not trying to scare anyone. The point is that the DRO has no authority and there are no consequences for defying them.

Quote:Some day this thread will be a treasure trove of libertarian FAQ.

It's a treasure trove already. A trove of comedy.

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12-08-2014, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 04:26 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 03:44 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Luminon, I want to thank you for helping to educate me. Before this I didn't fully appreciate what I have here in the US. I also didn't fully appreciate the ultimate consequences of the Libertarian ideal.

I want to thank you for showing me how utterly vile and repulsive this anarcho-capitalist proposal truly is. Also for showing me even more reasons not to trust slick salesmen like Stefan Molyneaux. I feel I have learned a lot here.
Well, no real harm done. When people claim they look for new things outside, they see their old fears inside. An easy way to see that is, nobody is curious the materials and links I post, because there's no person to insult behind an online website or PDF. Some showed a bit of curiosity about me, but only after I made an enormous effort to present myself and not to respond to endless insults with insults as well.
I just regret that you believe I am truly so stupid and vile as to believe that everyone else say anarcho-capitalism is. Look, we don't insult each other. I see that people who insult and slander and are generally vicious have a totally wrong concept of ancap.
The idea of ancap is, let's be nice to each other and do everything compatible with that. People who are fundamentally vicious can not accept this definition of ancap, because it's not a verbal hobby. I regret that you seem to have it totally wrong too, for some hopefully different reason.
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12-08-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 04:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I just regret that you believe I am truly so stupid and vile as to believe that everyone else say anarcho-capitalism is. Look, we don't insult each other. I see that people who insult and slander and are generally vicious have a totally wrong concept of ancap.
The idea of ancap is, let's be nice to each other and do everything compatible with that. People who are fundamentally vicious can not accept this definition of ancap.
I regret that you seem to have it totally wrong too, for some hopefully different reason.

We have given you multiple opportunities to expand on how exactly your ancap system will work. If you want us to accept your ideas it's up to you to explain them. The explanations that you gave, as an apparent masters student no less, were rooted in the idea that humans will magically be nice to each other.

I find it amusing that when people disagree with you, only then do you turn to the idea that some humans are fundamentally vicious - which immediately undermines all of your purported solutions to problems such as the rich dominating the poor.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-08-2014, 04:32 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 04:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 04:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I just regret that you believe I am truly so stupid and vile as to believe that everyone else say anarcho-capitalism is. Look, we don't insult each other. I see that people who insult and slander and are generally vicious have a totally wrong concept of ancap.
The idea of ancap is, let's be nice to each other and do everything compatible with that. People who are fundamentally vicious can not accept this definition of ancap.
I regret that you seem to have it totally wrong too, for some hopefully different reason.

We have given you multiple opportunities to expand on how exactly your ancap system will work. If you want us to accept your ideas it's up to you to explain them. The explanations that you gave, as an apparent masters student no less, were rooted in the idea that humans will magically be nice to each other.

I find it amusing that when people disagree with you, only then do you turn to the idea that some humans are fundamentally vicious - which immediately undermines all of your purported solutions to problems such as the rich dominating the poor.

It was nice he immediately started to blame CS for not understanding his brilliance rather than accept the criticism at face value.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-08-2014, 04:36 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 04:50 PM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(12-08-2014 04:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  We have given you multiple opportunities to expand on how exactly your ancap system will work. If you want us to accept your ideas it's up to you to explain them. The explanations that you gave, as an apparent masters student no less, were rooted in the idea that humans will magically be nice to each other.

I find it amusing that when people disagree with you, only then do you turn to the idea that some humans are fundamentally vicious - which immediately undermines all of your purported solutions to problems such as the rich dominating the poor.
Nobody in the world can give you "exactly", so demanding "how exactly" equals to saying "fuck you" in a veiled way. It's sending me on a fool's errand. Nobody told the people how exactly will cotton be picked when slavery is ended. Nobody could foresee big harvesting machines powered by liquid fossilized dinosaurs.

No, humans do not need to be magically nice to each other in order to improve our conditions. However, the extremely dangerous forms of non-niceness called rent-seeking, lobbying, central banking, wars, police states and permanent welfare underclass will vanish with stopping mandatory support to government, everything else is comparatively easy to solve. Libertarianism eliminates the big problems first. Random violence can be dealt with, but organized violence, culturally approved and glorified, is a global threat.

Humans today are fundamentally vicious, because they were bred and raised for it. Humans are not homogeneous species, just like dogs aren't. We react to our prenatal and childhood environment the most of all species on Earth. If we are raised under stress and force, we come out as fight/flight/freeze/follow no-empathy wrecks or dangerous human predators. Some rare individuals have the capacity to overcome this conditioning and create a peaceful family environment to raise peacefully adapted children. What is a problem, can become the solution.
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