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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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16-08-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 12:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-08-2014 12:29 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No consequences there. If a proposition A is illogical, it can never be good, I can rule it out pretty fast.

... that's a total non sequitur.

So much for "logic".
All you have to do is to show a thing that is illogical, internally inconsistent, yet good. That would disprove the proposal. Saying "that's a total non sequitur" is verbal diarrhoea of a cannibal with physics. Good luck!
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16-08-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 12:41 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-08-2014 12:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  ... that's a total non sequitur.

So much for "logic".
All you have to do is to show a thing that is illogical, internally inconsistent, yet good. That would disprove the proposal. Saying "that's a total non sequitur" is verbal diarrhoea of a cannibal with physics. Good luck!

I cannot parse this response.

I have literally no idea what you're trying to say.

I have pointed out to you the limitations of what you call "basic" logic. No formal system can be both wholly complete and wholly consistent. No system. I'm not the one you need to take it up with. The real, actual universe around us does not operate on binary logic. It does not. Fact. End of line. Binary logic is a reductive framework, occasionally of great utility, but hardly the be all and end all of analysis.

That you are incapable of separating a framework (your "basic" logic) from an application of it (your "objective" morality, itself based on numerous faulty assumptions) is not my problem.

If I reject the parameters of your analysis I am not going to be so stupid as to attempt to disprove those parameters from within them. This is the same pathetic category error presuppositionalists make in all religious arguments. I can grant that your conclusions follow from your premises - this is a mostly trivial process. I do not accept your premises, or your mode of analysis, because you cannot justify them by anything other than feels.

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16-08-2014, 01:14 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
I'll tell you what, language operates on binary logic. Does God exist? Yes he does, or no, he doesn't. All rebuttals of Christian dogma operate on binary logic. All the moral proposals that Christians put forward are judged by atheists like that and I will judge the political proposals just the same.

If immortal God sacrifices himself to himself, that's the same kind of bullshit like when bad people elect themselves to force themselves to be good.

Yes, it is a trivial process and it is exactly the trivial process where parents and governments fail the most and lie about it. The whole culture covers up the ugly truth that it's all a fallacy on the level of basic logic. If something fails at the basic logic, there will be consequences. We call these consequences war, crime, corruption and depression.
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16-08-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If something fails at the basic logic, there will be consequences. We call these consequences war, crime, corruption and depression.

Delusion. Such as you exhibit.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-08-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Well I guess Lumy was getting jealous of Res getting all the crazy attention and needed to be reassured he was still the craziest girl at the ball.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-08-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'll tell you what, language operates on binary logic.

... no it doesn't?

What sort of deranged reasoning led you to this conclusion? Language operates on binary logic when articulating binary logic propositions. It operates on other modes when articulating other propositions.

Don't bother answering, though. I already know how you reasoned this one out: either language does (always!) operates on binary logic, or it does not (ever!) operates on binary logic, and since the latter is false, the former is true! Logic!

If you don't see how flawed that is, I once again seriously question the value of the "education" you purport to have received.
(hint: it's begging the question so hard I'm surprised your inner ear doesn't pop)

Binary logic is to multi-valued modal logic as classical physics is to modern physics: a limiting case. Tremendously useful, but a proper subset only.

(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Does God exist? Yes he does, or no, he doesn't.

Define "God".
(hint: defining terms involves that scaaaaary idea, nuance)

(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  All rebuttals of Christian dogma operate on binary logic.

And... no.

"Either the universe came from nothing or the universe came from God" is a binary proposition (that of theistic cosmological arguments, as you may recognize).

It is flawed, because neither is valid.

Whoops!
(but it's also extremely illustrative: rejecting the poser's favoured choice of option does not constitute accepting the other)

(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  All the moral proposals that Christians put forward are judged by atheists like that and I will judge the political proposals just the same.

Still no.

(16-08-2014 01:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If immortal God sacrifices himself to himself, that's the same kind of bullshit like when bad people elect themselves to force themselves to be good.

Yes, it is a trivial process and it is exactly the trivial process where parents and governments fail the most and lie about it. The whole culture covers up the ugly truth that it's all a fallacy on the level of basic logic. If something fails at the basic logic, there will be consequences. We call these consequences war, crime, corruption and depression.

What the actual fuck?

No, friendo, those things happen for reasons. Market booms and busts are the inevitable consequence of statistical processes and human nature. Wars are not declared for shits and giggles; those prosecuting them do so because to them they seem the logical course of action.

So that, right there, is implicit admission on your part that other premises exist. Other courses of reasoning disagree with you, and this is trivially and immediately demonstrable.

Now, what makes you special is your thoughts re: that inevitable disagreement. You cloak yourself in a mantle of exclusive objectivity and correctness (just, we may incidentally note, as the theists do). You can't actually justify this; you cannot even begin to articulate it.

You reject other analyses because they do not accept your premises. You defend your analysis by saying it is consistent with itself.

That's a presuppositional black hole. God help you if you think that's compelling.

You don't even understand what a fallacy is. A fallacy is a flaw in reasoning from premises. Possessing different premises is not fallacious. Read a book.

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16-08-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Delusion? "There is a continuum, therefore X is moral and whatever X does, we need some of that in society. If X says it's good, the it must be at least a bit good, because the truth isn't binary. We don't want to be all radical and reject X completely."
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16-08-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 01:33 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Delusion? "There is a continuum, therefore X is moral and whatever X does, we need some of that in society. If X says it's good, the it must be at least a bit good, because the truth isn't binary. We don't want to be all radical and reject X completely."

Non sequitur +1 ! ! ! Combo chain initiated!

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16-08-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 01:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-08-2014 01:33 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Delusion? "There is a continuum, therefore X is moral and whatever X does, we need some of that in society. If X says it's good, the it must be at least a bit good, because the truth isn't binary. We don't want to be all radical and reject X completely."

Non sequitur +1 ! ! ! Combo chain initiated!
Non sequitur, but not when you say it about the state. Then it's the best argument in the world.
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16-08-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(16-08-2014 01:54 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-08-2014 01:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Non sequitur +1 ! ! ! Combo chain initiated!
Non sequitur, but not when you say it about the state. Then it's the best argument in the world.

Still can't parse. Incoherent straw men are inadmissible.

Non sequitur +1 ! ! ! Combo chain X3!

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