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No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
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23-08-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(23-08-2014 10:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 10:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well; technically the Reconstructionists had a pretty comprehensive plan...

It just didn't happen.

It was not as planned for as it should have been. Of course the problem was, as much as some people like to reimagine the past, freeing the slaves was not the primary reason (or hell even the tertiary reason) for fighting Civil war for most of the participants on either side. Anyway it was a rather large detail that was not accounted for by most people and certainly never had the support needed to actually achieve any lasting success. I think my point still stands though.

Consider

I've never seen a States-Rights argument that didn't boil down to them being afraid of federal abolition, that their cause was always at base the retention and protection of the institution of slavery upon which their entire economy and society was built around.

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23-08-2014, 10:34 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(23-08-2014 10:31 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 10:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It was not as planned for as it should have been. Of course the problem was, as much as some people like to reimagine the past, freeing the slaves was not the primary reason (or hell even the tertiary reason) for fighting Civil war for most of the participants on either side. Anyway it was a rather large detail that was not accounted for by most people and certainly never had the support needed to actually achieve any lasting success. I think my point still stands though.

Consider

I've never seen a States-Rights argument that didn't boil down to them being afraid of federal abolition, that their cause was always at base the retention and protection of the institution of slavery upon which their entire economy and society was built around.

Was referring to the general people not the politics. Average soldier on either side probably gave 0 fucks about states rights or slavery.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-08-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(23-08-2014 10:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 10:31 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Consider

I've never seen a States-Rights argument that didn't boil down to them being afraid of federal abolition, that their cause was always at base the retention and protection of the institution of slavery upon which their entire economy and society was built around.

Was referring to the general people not the politics. Average soldier on either side probably gave 0 fucks about states rights or slavery.

That makes more sense, because even the average soldier on the Confederate side was not a wealthy plantation owner.

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24-08-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(23-08-2014 10:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yup first time I was ever called a Statist I was floored. I am so not an authoritarian type. One of the big reasons I hate Communism is because it always ends up as a Stalinist nightmare.
So you are a minarchist? Or is it a slim form of democracy where people can't vote themselves more money and power, because the constitution says so?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism
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24-08-2014, 05:29 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by dr. Robert Sapolsky)
Scenes from the Symposion Nights

When all the sociopath male baboons were removed from a troop, the rest of the troop was able to live peacefully, and without hierarchy.



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24-08-2014, 05:56 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(24-08-2014 05:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by dr. Robert Sapolsky)
Scenes from the Symposion Nights

When all the sociopath male baboons were removed from a troop, the rest of the troop was able to live peacefully, and without hierarchy.




Ok so we'll just shoot all the sociopath male humans then. Starting with IRS agents. After all they probably spank their kids, so they deserve it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2014, 06:00 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(24-08-2014 05:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by dr. Robert Sapolsky)
Scenes from the Symposion Nights

When all the sociopath male baboons were removed from a troop, the rest of the troop was able to live peacefully, and without hierarchy.





Okay, so shit rolls downhill with baboons as well, not an earth shattering revelation by any means.


Also, within the first minute "...insofar as a huge component of stress is lack of control, lack of predictability.". So how is this stressor decreased by eliminating social safety nets? How is this stressor decreased by eliminating regulations on safety, health, food, and the environment (remember, magic and feels don't count)?


At the end, we're left with a baboon troop who bucked the trend through accident, and now prospers under a more egalitarian direction. They have less stress, and appear for all intents and purposes to be happier and healthier; confirming what we already know about humans, that less stress is healthier. Also notice that they didn't become IRS shooting isolationist as soon as the Alpha's died. They refocused their family and group bonds, becoming more of a inclusive and mutually supportive community; hardly a model for your Libertarian anarcho-capitalist utopia.


I imagine that what you took away from this video was something along the lines of "we can and should change" as somehow an endorsement of changing to your particular worldview. As opposed to what I got out of it, "life is better for everyone with less selfish assholes around". Which when you zoom out and look big picture, who's the one who endorses unfettered capitalism and rampant greed, hoping that there will be enough Gate's or Tesla's to make it all worthwhile? Who has been the one who explicitly stated "fuck equality"? I know you'd like to equate the state to those Alpha Males, but the analogy simply won't work. These baboons where poster children of socialist hippy communes if anything... Drinking Beverage

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24-08-2014, 06:49 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2014 07:14 AM by Luminon.)
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(24-08-2014 05:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ok so we'll just shoot all the sociopath male humans then. Starting with IRS agents. After all they probably spank their kids, so they deserve it.
Have you heard of the Non-Aggression Principle? Consider
No, we just point a finger and laugh when they sign an order or say anything, such as "my fellow Americans".

(24-08-2014 06:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay, so shit rolls downhill with baboons as well, not an earth shattering revelation by any means.


Also, within the first minute "...insofar as a huge component of stress is lack of control, lack of predictability.". So how is this stressor decreased by eliminating social safety nets? How is this stressor decreased by eliminating regulations on safety, health, food, and the environment (remember, magic and feels don't count)?
You seem to equate a dominant power that can redistribute property with a safety net. In my view, they are two different things.
Safety nets can and do exist in absence of dominant power, they're called friendly societies and charities (and families). Redistribution is not a guarantee of safety, it is a guarantee of unsafety, that someone will take a part of your money and use it arbitrarily to support his own political power, plus give something away to the poor, also arbitrarily. Dumping money on the poor keeps them poor, they learn how to milk the system, not how to be productive and self-sufficient. Charity must be like a scalpel, not bombardment.

The modern social security system was invented by Otto von Bismarck to shut up the socialists and divide them internally. In practice, not that many people qualified for it. But it was later voted into a big system. Only it never was sustainable. In the present, government social security systems are rolling about 300 % debts. If the debt is kept small, it is at the price of stunting economic growth and pitting the old against the young.

I am all for social security, but my Economics lessons said that Bismarck's model is unsustainable, it's a huge Ponzi scheme. I believe low or no taxes will allow the people to build an ecosystem of private retirement funds, friendly societies and charity. Also, families will be more able to care for the old and more able to donate to charities. People will stick together instead of standing alone and helpless against the big state.

(24-08-2014 06:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  At the end, we're left with a baboon troop who bucked the trend through accident, and now prospers under a more egalitarian direction. They have less stress, and appear for all intents and purposes to be happier and healthier; confirming what we already know about humans, that less stress is healthier. Also notice that they didn't become IRS shooting isolationist as soon as the Alpha's died. They refocused their family and group bonds, becoming more of a inclusive and mutually supportive community; hardly a model for your Libertarian anarcho-capitalist utopia.
No, this is exactly what I mean. This is the ancapistan, this is the Non-Aggression Principle. I am very much for high-quality family and group bonds or whatever else people choose voluntarily.
Capitalism isn't aggression, it is respecting people (and their property) and paying or asking them nicely to donate, not taxing or nationalizing them, when it is in "public good". Capitalism happens when you leave people alone.

(24-08-2014 06:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I imagine that what you took away from this video was something along the lines of "we can and should change" as somehow an endorsement of changing to your particular worldview. As opposed to what I got out of it, "life is better for everyone with less selfish assholes around". Which when you zoom out and look big picture, who's the one who endorses unfettered capitalism and rampant greed, hoping that there will be enough Gate's or Tesla's to make it all worthwhile? Who has been the one who explicitly stated "fuck equality"? I know you'd like to equate the state to those Alpha Males, but the analogy simply won't work. These baboons where poster children of socialist hippy communes if anything... Drinking Beverage
Well, the state is socialism. Small state is small socialism.
But the truth is, warlords didn't take over. They didn't set up an ISIS style theocracy after the leading sociopaths were gone.

Yes, fuck equality. We can not be forced to be equal, that creates the worst kinds of inequality. We are not equal in anything except rights and dignity. And we do not have rights to other people's property, because they have property rights too! Other people and their money are not your or government property. They belong to themselves. There is nothing no *just right* amount of money to have, it's not for others to decide.

Also, creating equality through forced redistribution is putting a cart in front of the horse. Just because a government can make switcharoo, take from the rich, give to the poor and make everyone have the same number on bank account, what do you think happens? A disaster. The poor will not know how to make good use of the money skillfully, because they did not obtain the money skillfully. The rich will lack the money they need to set up large scale productive enterprise that keeps everyone materially secure.
Equality is this mystical concept that is hard to define. Equality, compared to what?
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24-08-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(24-08-2014 06:49 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 05:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ok so we'll just shoot all the sociopath male humans then. Starting with IRS agents. After all they probably spank their kids, so they deserve it.
Have you heard of the Non-Aggression Principle? Consider
No, we just point a finger and laugh when they sign an order or say anything, such as "my fellow Americans".

And that will magically stop them from being sociopaths, yes?

Rolleyes Christ.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: No wing: political equivalent to atheism?
(24-08-2014 07:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 06:49 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Have you heard of the Non-Aggression Principle? Consider
No, we just point a finger and laugh when they sign an order or say anything, such as "my fellow Americans".

And that will magically stop them from being sociopaths, yes?

Rolleyes Christ.
No, that will magically stop them from starting wars against countries, drugs and terrorism. Let's get that off our neck first and the resources freed up in this way will allow for new solutions that we can't think of yet.
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