Noah's Ark & Other Things
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31-03-2016, 10:49 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(31-03-2016 07:40 PM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 04:50 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  But that isn't the point. When I ask why we, the educated atheists who KNOW the Jews wrote the OT, aren't taking them to task and accusing them of the bullshit most here aim at Christians, THAT is the point I have introduced. I don't need a lesson on how ridiculous the Christian theists are or how their ignorance leads them to believe they wrote the bible and need to defend the ark story.

Let's hold accountable those responsible for this preposterous story, not just the ones who THINK they wrote it and explain it away.

In 2012, on average, 92 people per day were killed in the US in auto accidents. Do you blame Chrysler or Ford or Toyota? No.

If someone turned Harry Potter into a murderous religious cult, would you blame J K Rowling? No.

And, for similar reasoning, people don't blame the Jews for pushing Noah's flood and the Exodus etc. They're not the ones pushing the shit down all of our throats by standing on street corners and in town centres and leafleting our homes and knocking on our doors telling us that unless we give our lives to jebus, we are all gonna fry in hell for eternity. That would be the christards - the ones we aim our shit at.

I have now gone full circle.

Yes, the Jews wrote the OT but they are not the ones pushing it out there.

Ask yourself this: If I started pushing the Phlogiston theory, who would you blame - Becher or me?

What of call of the wild and every other troll that this place has had. Have they been Jews? No, they have been christards.

And that's why christards get the shit - because they are the ones spreading it, not the Jews.

Has this made it clearer?

No

We all know this. But this OP was trying to force the Christian theists to square a circle the Jews made. Get it? While the Christians follow it, they didn't invent it.

Let's just stop. You keep explaining why we give the Christians shit in general and you're preaching to the agnostic choir.

Just be sure to give Jewish theists some shit for writing a bullshit OT once in a while. Thumbsup

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01-04-2016, 04:58 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2016 06:17 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(31-03-2016 10:49 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 07:40 PM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  In 2012, on average, 92 people per day were killed in the US in auto accidents. Do you blame Chrysler or Ford or Toyota? No.

If someone turned Harry Potter into a murderous religious cult, would you blame J K Rowling? No.

And, for similar reasoning, people don't blame the Jews for pushing Noah's flood and the Exodus etc. They're not the ones pushing the shit down all of our throats by standing on street corners and in town centres and leafleting our homes and knocking on our doors telling us that unless we give our lives to jebus, we are all gonna fry in hell for eternity. That would be the christards - the ones we aim our shit at.

I have now gone full circle.

Yes, the Jews wrote the OT but they are not the ones pushing it out there.

Ask yourself this: If I started pushing the Phlogiston theory, who would you blame - Becher or me?

What of call of the wild and every other troll that this place has had. Have they been Jews? No, they have been christards.

And that's why christards get the shit - because they are the ones spreading it, not the Jews.

Has this made it clearer?

No

We all know this. But this OP was trying to force the Christian theists to square a circle the Jews made. Get it? While the Christians follow it, they didn't invent it.

Let's just stop. You keep explaining why we give the Christians shit in general and you're preaching to the agnostic choir.

Just be sure to give Jewish theists some shit for writing a bullshit OT once in a while. Thumbsup

The Jews did write the OT - agreed.

The Jews did write the shit about the ark and the exodus etc. - agreed.

However, they've moved on and left that shit behind just like science left the Phlogiston theory behind. They were both wrong. They were ditched. It is pointless trying to square a broken circle. We don't try and fix the Phlogiston theory - do we? We replace it with a better theory and move on.

chistards are still trying to run with the ark and the exodus shit instead of dropping it. They picked up the shit. They are spreading the shit. They are getting the shit. Giving the Jews shit for having the good sense to drop some bad shit that they wrote is illogical.

Some of the Atheists on here use to be christards. What do you want to do about them - beat the crap out of them for being christards in the first place or welcome them into the fold for having the wisdom to see the light and turn their backs on christardology?

Besides, I do not have issue with anyone who keeps their beliefs to themselves and does not extol the virtues of their particular deity in public and tries to force their belief system on me. I don't have that right. Jews don't do that. I therefore don't and will not give them shit until such time as they do.

Christards on the other hand do extol the virtues of their deity on street corners and do try and force their belief system on me. They do have a negative effect on my life and for that I will give them shit.

I do hope that this has made things a little clearer.

I agree with most of what you have typed - just not all.

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01-04-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
Oh, I see how it is. Blame the Jews. Tongue

I'm not trying to take you to task or anything, Willhopp. I really hope you won't take it that way, but I do happen to have a different view on this subject and I want to share my perspective. The thing about the OT is that we didn’t give it to anyone at all. This is a book that was never intended for public consumption. The Greeks had it forcibly translated, and the Christian bible is based on this unauthorized Greek translation.

Yes, the Jews wrote the book, but our understanding of it as a whole is unrecognizable from the way the Christian community understands it. The end result seems to be that Jews get secular educations and not only accept scientific discovery, but have pioneered many fields. We continue to make our mark in science, medicine, and technology. Jews are never in the courtrooms trying to get evolution removed from school curriculum. We’ve never tried to get pork removed from cafeteria menus and not only do we think that it's okay if you don't believe in our Torah, but we really don't want you to become Jewish. We just want you to be a good person and enjoy your life.

Something is very different about the way Christians and Jews read and process this book.

We have tried to explain to Christians that they’re reading it wrong, but they've historically thanked us for our efforts by expelling us from their countries, destroying our villages for fun, murdering us and accusing us of killing their god. It’s not our fault that Gentiles stole our book. We’re not responsible for their shitty interpretations or their stubbornness in letting go of old ideas in light of new information.

If you really want to blame the Jews, then that's fine. We're far from perfect. But I would hope that you would try to learn about what Jews actually believe and how our religion has shaped us as a people. We're not just Christians without Jesus. Thumbsup
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01-04-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 10:34 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh, I see how it is. Blame the Jews. Tongue

I'm not trying to take you to task or anything, Willhopp. I really hope you won't take it that way, but I do happen to have a different view on this subject and I want to share my perspective. The thing about the OT is that we didn’t give it to anyone at all. This is a book that was never intended for public consumption. The Greeks had it forcibly translated, and the Christian bible is based on this unauthorized Greek translation.

Yes, the Jews wrote the book, but our understanding of it as a whole is unrecognizable from the way the Christian community understands it. The end result seems to be that Jews get secular educations and not only accept scientific discovery, but have pioneered many fields. We continue to make our mark in science, medicine, and technology. Jews are never in the courtrooms trying to get evolution removed from school curriculum. We’ve never tried to get pork removed from cafeteria menus and not only do we think that it's okay if you don't believe in our Torah, but we really don't want you to become Jewish. We just want you to be a good person and enjoy your life.

Something is very different about the way Christians and Jews read and process this book.

We have tried to explain to Christians that they’re reading it wrong, but they've historically thanked us for our efforts by expelling us from their countries, destroying our villages for fun, murdering us and accusing us of killing their god. It’s not our fault that Gentiles stole our book. We’re not responsible for their shitty interpretations or their stubbornness in letting go of old ideas in light of new information.

If you really want to blame the Jews, then that's fine. We're far from perfect. But I would hope that you would try to learn about what Jews actually believe and how our religion has shaped us as a people. We're not just Christians without Jesus. Thumbsup

I have no problem with any person's beliefs and never said I did. I am the least anti-Semetic non-Jew you can find. I do have a problem when people who create stories aren't held accountable for said stories. It just perplexes me when people attack ONLY the Christians for what's wrong with the OT. It makes zero sense.

So, how about this, tell me what you believe about Noah's Ark according to the correct way to interpret it. Tell me what that story is about and if your interpretation holds up to the same scrutiny bestowed upon the ignorant Christians' interpretation.

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01-04-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 02:20 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 10:34 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh, I see how it is. Blame the Jews. Tongue

I'm not trying to take you to task or anything, Willhopp. I really hope you won't take it that way, but I do happen to have a different view on this subject and I want to share my perspective. The thing about the OT is that we didn’t give it to anyone at all. This is a book that was never intended for public consumption. The Greeks had it forcibly translated, and the Christian bible is based on this unauthorized Greek translation.

Yes, the Jews wrote the book, but our understanding of it as a whole is unrecognizable from the way the Christian community understands it. The end result seems to be that Jews get secular educations and not only accept scientific discovery, but have pioneered many fields. We continue to make our mark in science, medicine, and technology. Jews are never in the courtrooms trying to get evolution removed from school curriculum. We’ve never tried to get pork removed from cafeteria menus and not only do we think that it's okay if you don't believe in our Torah, but we really don't want you to become Jewish. We just want you to be a good person and enjoy your life.

Something is very different about the way Christians and Jews read and process this book.

We have tried to explain to Christians that they’re reading it wrong, but they've historically thanked us for our efforts by expelling us from their countries, destroying our villages for fun, murdering us and accusing us of killing their god. It’s not our fault that Gentiles stole our book. We’re not responsible for their shitty interpretations or their stubbornness in letting go of old ideas in light of new information.

If you really want to blame the Jews, then that's fine. We're far from perfect. But I would hope that you would try to learn about what Jews actually believe and how our religion has shaped us as a people. We're not just Christians without Jesus. Thumbsup

I have no problem with any person's beliefs and never said I did. I am the least anti-Semetic non-Jew you can find. I do have a problem when people who create stories aren't held accountable for said stories. It just perplexes me when people attack ONLY the Christians for what's wrong with the OT. It makes zero sense.

So, how about this, tell me what you believe about Noah's Ark according to the correct way to interpret it. Tell me what that story is about and if your interpretation holds up to the same scrutiny bestowed upon the ignorant Christians' interpretation.

Meh. I typed out this big, long reply, and now I think I may have misunderstood what you're asking for.

Are you asking for the Jewish explanation, or my personal explanation? That's going to change my answer significantly.
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01-04-2016, 05:15 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 04:09 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 02:20 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I have no problem with any person's beliefs and never said I did. I am the least anti-Semetic non-Jew you can find. I do have a problem when people who create stories aren't held accountable for said stories. It just perplexes me when people attack ONLY the Christians for what's wrong with the OT. It makes zero sense.

So, how about this, tell me what you believe about Noah's Ark according to the correct way to interpret it. Tell me what that story is about and if your interpretation holds up to the same scrutiny bestowed upon the ignorant Christians' interpretation.

Meh. I typed out this big, long reply, and now I think I may have misunderstood what you're asking for.

Are you asking for the Jewish explanation, or my personal explanation? That's going to change my answer significantly.

Well, that's just it, isn't it? How can there be two explanations? If your explanation of the Ark story differs from what Jewish elders say then that is just as bad as Christian interpretations being "wrong."

All I'm saying is, if there is ANY problem with the ark story, any problem at all, how can the Jewish religion not be held accountable? It wrote it.

Just because Christians can be obnoxious, etc., doesn't mean they are responsible for the OT atrocities. I don't need a rabbi to tell me there is a correct way to accept slavery as a moral code. Ain't happening. And who wrote about slavery? Not the Christians. If anyone is offended by the OT, they can't possibly blame Christianity for that. It's ridiculous and misplaced.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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01-04-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 04:09 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Meh. I typed out this big, long reply, and now I think I may have misunderstood what you're asking for.

Are you asking for the Jewish explanation, or my personal explanation? That's going to change my answer significantly.

Well, that's just it, isn't it? How can there be two explanations? If your explanation of the Ark story differs from what Jewish elders say then that is just as bad as Christian interpretations being "wrong."

All I'm saying is, if there is ANY problem with the ark story, any problem at all, how can the Jewish religion not be held accountable? It wrote it.

Just because Christians can be obnoxious, etc., doesn't mean they are responsible for the OT atrocities. I don't need a rabbi to tell me there is a correct way to accept slavery as a moral code. Ain't happening. And who wrote about slavery? Not the Christians. If anyone is offended by the OT, they can't possibly blame Christianity for that. It's ridiculous and misplaced.

Laugh out load We have lots of interpretations for the flood. There is no unified explanation for the story of Noah. Reform Jews view it as figurative, while orthodox view it as literal, and there are wild explanations like the ark was bigger on the inside, or that it took place in another dimension. I've heard that the water over the Earth was boiling hot. It doesn't matter what you believe! The Torah isn't a book about creation, or floods, or splitting the sea. It's a book about how you live your life. Take it literally or take it figuratively. It doesn't matter! Big Grin

“Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides and Gersonides held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great Rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.” Wikipedia link

I was taught to follow Maimonides principle above. Either we misunderstood the Torah, or we misunderstood the science. The science seems pretty clear. There is zero evidence to support a flood narrative and good evidence to support that a global flood could not have happened.

So a literal reading of Noah's flood breaks Maimonides’s rule. Torah and Science are not aligned. Like creation, the story of the ark may be taken as a metaphor, or as I would prefer to call it, an overly simplified story about a very complex concept.
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01-04-2016, 05:32 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
the ark is a tardis confirmed.

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01-04-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Just because Christians can be obnoxious, etc., doesn't mean they are responsible for the OT atrocities. I don't need a rabbi to tell me there is a correct way to accept slavery as a moral code. Ain't happening. And who wrote about slavery? Not the Christians. If anyone is offended by the OT, they can't possibly blame Christianity for that. It's ridiculous and misplaced.

Slavery was outlawed (IIRC) about 2,000 years ago. It had been getting phased out since the construction of the second temple.

We do have the authority to take some creative license with the bible. Just because the Torah makes allowances for owning slaves doesn't mean we should.
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01-04-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Well, that's just it, isn't it? How can there be two explanations? If your explanation of the Ark story differs from what Jewish elders say then that is just as bad as Christian interpretations being "wrong."

All I'm saying is, if there is ANY problem with the ark story, any problem at all, how can the Jewish religion not be held accountable? It wrote it.

Just because Christians can be obnoxious, etc., doesn't mean they are responsible for the OT atrocities. I don't need a rabbi to tell me there is a correct way to accept slavery as a moral code. Ain't happening. And who wrote about slavery? Not the Christians. If anyone is offended by the OT, they can't possibly blame Christianity for that. It's ridiculous and misplaced.

Laugh out load We have lots of interpretations for the flood. There is no unified explanation for the story of Noah. Reform Jews view it as figurative, while orthodox view it as literal, and there are wild explanations like the ark was bigger on the inside, or that it took place in another dimension. I've heard that the water over the Earth was boiling hot. It doesn't matter what you believe! The Torah isn't a book about creation, or floods, or splitting the sea. It's a book about how you live your life. Take it literally or take it figuratively. It doesn't matter! Big Grin

“Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides and Gersonides held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great Rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.” Wikipedia link

I was taught to follow Maimonides principle above. Either we misunderstood the Torah, or we misunderstood the science. The science seems pretty clear. There is zero evidence to support a flood narrative and good evidence to support that a global flood could not have happened.

So a literal reading of Noah's flood breaks Maimonides’s rule. Torah and Science are not aligned. Like creation, the story of the ark may be taken as a metaphor, or as I would prefer to call it, an overly simplified story about a very complex concept.

So you basically confirmed my point, thanks.

Like I wrote earlier, I have no problem with people believing what they want, I just think taking Christians to task for a document that is completely not of their creation makes no sense. And the fact that they were exposed to this document doesn't make them guilty of its transgressions or preposterous content.

The fact that you have explained this document as essentially being whatever you want it to be is typical religious nonsense that allows the believers to talk out of both sides of their mouths. It's the equivalent of god getting credit for all good things that happen but none of the blame for bad things because satan/mysterious ways/etc.

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