Noah's Ark & Other Things
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-04-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:45 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Laugh out load We have lots of interpretations for the flood. There is no unified explanation for the story of Noah. Reform Jews view it as figurative, while orthodox view it as literal, and there are wild explanations like the ark was bigger on the inside, or that it took place in another dimension. I've heard that the water over the Earth was boiling hot. It doesn't matter what you believe! The Torah isn't a book about creation, or floods, or splitting the sea. It's a book about how you live your life. Take it literally or take it figuratively. It doesn't matter! Big Grin

“Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides and Gersonides held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great Rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.” Wikipedia link

I was taught to follow Maimonides principle above. Either we misunderstood the Torah, or we misunderstood the science. The science seems pretty clear. There is zero evidence to support a flood narrative and good evidence to support that a global flood could not have happened.

So a literal reading of Noah's flood breaks Maimonides’s rule. Torah and Science are not aligned. Like creation, the story of the ark may be taken as a metaphor, or as I would prefer to call it, an overly simplified story about a very complex concept.

So you basically confirmed my point, thanks.

Like I wrote earlier, I have no problem with people believing what they want, I just think taking Christians to task for a document that is completely not of their creation makes no sense. And the fact that they were exposed to this document doesn't make them guilty of its transgressions or preposterous content.

The fact that you have explained this document as essentially being whatever you want it to be is typical religious nonsense that allows the believers to talk out of both sides of their mouths. It's the equivalent of god getting credit for all good things that happen but none of the blame for bad things because satan/mysterious ways/etc.

Oh, see... I take the flood as a figurative story. But if you think its literal, then... I guess I just can't respond. Sorry. Sad
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-04-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:36 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Just because Christians can be obnoxious, etc., doesn't mean they are responsible for the OT atrocities. I don't need a rabbi to tell me there is a correct way to accept slavery as a moral code. Ain't happening. And who wrote about slavery? Not the Christians. If anyone is offended by the OT, they can't possibly blame Christianity for that. It's ridiculous and misplaced.

Slavery was outlawed (IIRC) about 2,000 years ago. It had been getting phased out since the construction of the second temple.

We do have the authority to take some creative license with the bible. Just because the Torah makes allowances for owning slaves doesn't mean we should.

This sounds like rationalization to me. Is the Torah not what YHWH expects of his people? Is it not a guide? If slavery is promoted and regulated in the Torah, who are you to question the allowances? You have the authority to interpret how you see fit a document given to you by your god? Interesting. If you were a Christian and had a neg rep, people on here would be going insane in response to some of your explanations and interpretations.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it just seems to me many people on here let their disdain for Christian theists distort their view of things, which is how this whole tangent got started for me. Why should Judaism get a pass because the OT is "its story" and no matter how ridiculous and offensive it is, we should not take Judaism to task because Jews didn't ask for your opinion or interpretation? The fact is, if anyone finds the ark story or any Genesis effluvium to be ridiculous, then their beef should be with Judaism, not Christianity.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-04-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:45 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So you basically confirmed my point, thanks.

Like I wrote earlier, I have no problem with people believing what they want, I just think taking Christians to task for a document that is completely not of their creation makes no sense. And the fact that they were exposed to this document doesn't make them guilty of its transgressions or preposterous content.

The fact that you have explained this document as essentially being whatever you want it to be is typical religious nonsense that allows the believers to talk out of both sides of their mouths. It's the equivalent of god getting credit for all good things that happen but none of the blame for bad things because satan/mysterious ways/etc.

Oh, see... I take the flood as a figurative story. But if you think its literal, then... I guess I just can't respond. Sorry. Sad

I don't take it literally, the OP was asking Christian theists to square the circle. That's how this whole thing got started.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-04-2016, 06:39 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
   
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gawdzilla's post
01-04-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:54 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:36 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Slavery was outlawed (IIRC) about 2,000 years ago. It had been getting phased out since the construction of the second temple.

We do have the authority to take some creative license with the bible. Just because the Torah makes allowances for owning slaves doesn't mean we should.

This sounds like rationalization to me. Is the Torah not what YHWH expects of his people? Is it not a guide? If slavery is promoted and regulated in the Torah, who are you to question the allowances? You have the authority to interpret how you see fit a document given to you by your god? Interesting. If you were a Christian and had a neg rep, people on here would be going insane in response to some of your explanations and interpretations.

When Christians come here, they often argue from the position that they’re right, you’re wrong, and you're supposed to fall in line with their views. When you don't agree, they threaten you with eternal damnation. Judaism doesn’t ask anyone to believe any of it. I’m only explaining the Jewish position as I understand it. You are welcome to disagree with me and that will be the end of it.

Yes, we do have authority to interpret our document. We’ve had this authority for 3,500 years and we've exercised it many times. We believe that this allowance is given to us by our G-d in Deuteronomy 17:8-11. The whole point of our religion is to take responsibility for ourselves and not to rely on G-d for every little thing. I can't overstate this. This is a fundamental principle of Jewish theology.

Yes, we can and do interpret the Torah, we can amend certain practices, and yes, we can be wrong. It’s okay to be wrong, as long as we do it as a team. There’s a Jewish parable about these Rabbis arguing over the interpretation of some Jewish law at some large assembly. The first Rabbi thought it was to be understood one way, and the second Rabbi thought it was a different way. Most of the scholars agreed with the second Rabbi, and the majority won out. The first Rabbi called up to G-d and asked, “Lord, can you explain how we were supposed to interpret this law? This other guy is getting it all wrong.” G-d replied, “You have it right, everyone else is wrong.” And everyone in the room hollered up at G-d saying, “No! You gave us the Torah, and you told us to interpret it the way we wanted! You don’t get to come back and tell us that we’re interpreting it wrong!” And G-d cried with joy because his children finally *got it*. The second Rabbi’s ruling was upheld even though it was wrong.

This is Judaism. We don’t blindly follow G-d. We’re not supposed to. We live the law, not G-d. The law is there for our purposes, and the Torah belongs to us now. Judaism is a flexible religion that is designed to grow with us. It's not supposed to hinder our growth or stunt our intellect. It’s our right to interpret it, and it is absolutely our right to have decided that slavery is immoral and to outlaw it.

(01-04-2016 05:54 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it just seems to me many people on here let their disdain for Christian theists distort their view of things, which is how this whole tangent got started for me. Why should Judaism get a pass because the OT is "its story" and no matter how ridiculous and offensive it is, we should not take Judaism to task because Jews didn't ask for your opinion or interpretation? The fact is, if anyone finds the ark story or any Genesis effluvium to be ridiculous, then their beef should be with Judaism, not Christianity.

I don’t think you’re being a jerk at all. I think you’re expressing a very common misconception that people have about what Jews believe. This is part of why I remain on the forum. I would like the opportunity to present what Judaism is. Not for the purpose of trying to compel you to believe, to convert to my religion, or to even agree that I'm right, but just for the sake of wanting to explain and hopefully be understood.

I don’t mean to sound obtuse, but if our stories are offensive to you, why don’t you just stop reading them? It’s kind of like someone reading my diary and getting annoyed at how I live my life. Just stop reading my diary if you don’t like it. Problem solved. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
01-04-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 07:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:54 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  This sounds like rationalization to me. Is the Torah not what YHWH expects of his people? Is it not a guide? If slavery is promoted and regulated in the Torah, who are you to question the allowances? You have the authority to interpret how you see fit a document given to you by your god? Interesting. If you were a Christian and had a neg rep, people on here would be going insane in response to some of your explanations and interpretations.

When Christians come here, they often argue from the position that they’re right, you’re wrong, and you're supposed to fall in line with their views. When you don't agree, they threaten you with eternal damnation. Judaism doesn’t ask anyone to believe any of it. I’m only explaining the Jewish position as I understand it. You are welcome to disagree with me and that will be the end of it.

Yes, we do have authority to interpret our document. We’ve had this authority for 3,500 years and we've exercised it many times. We believe that this allowance is given to us by our G-d in Deuteronomy 17:8-11. The whole point of our religion is to take responsibility for ourselves and not to rely on G-d for every little thing. I can't overstate this. This is a fundamental principle of Jewish theology.

Yes, we can and do interpret the Torah, we can amend certain practices, and yes, we can be wrong. It’s okay to be wrong, as long as we do it as a team. There’s a Jewish parable about these Rabbis arguing over the interpretation of some Jewish law at some large assembly. The first Rabbi thought it was to be understood one way, and the second Rabbi thought it was a different way. Most of the scholars agreed with the second Rabbi, and the majority won out. The first Rabbi called up to G-d and asked, “Lord, can you explain how we were supposed to interpret this law? This other guy is getting it all wrong.” G-d replied, “You have it right, everyone else is wrong.” And everyone in the room hollered up at G-d saying, “No! You gave us the Torah, and you told us to interpret it the way we wanted! You don’t get to come back and tell us that we’re interpreting it wrong!” And G-d cried with joy because his children finally *got it*. The second Rabbi’s ruling was upheld even though it was wrong.

This is Judaism. We don’t blindly follow G-d. We’re not supposed to. We live the law, not G-d. The law is there for our purposes, and the Torah belongs to us now. Judaism is a flexible religion that is designed to grow with us. It's not supposed to hinder our growth or stunt our intellect. It’s our right to interpret it, and it is absolutely our right to have decided that slavery is immoral and to outlaw it.

(01-04-2016 05:54 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it just seems to me many people on here let their disdain for Christian theists distort their view of things, which is how this whole tangent got started for me. Why should Judaism get a pass because the OT is "its story" and no matter how ridiculous and offensive it is, we should not take Judaism to task because Jews didn't ask for your opinion or interpretation? The fact is, if anyone finds the ark story or any Genesis effluvium to be ridiculous, then their beef should be with Judaism, not Christianity.

I don’t think you’re being a jerk at all. I think you’re expressing a very common misconception that people have about what Jews believe. This is part of why I remain on the forum. I would like the opportunity to present what Judaism is. Not for the purpose of trying to compel you to believe, to convert to my religion, or to even agree that I'm right, but just for the sake of wanting to explain and hopefully be understood.

I don’t mean to sound obtuse, but if our stories are offensive to you, why don’t you just stop reading them? It’s kind of like someone reading my diary and getting annoyed at how I live my life. Just stop reading my diary if you don’t like it. Problem solved. Smile

I very much appreciate your explanation here, thanks.

And believe me, I no longer read the bible.

I really don't have the energy to respond to your "obtuse" paragraph because it would open a whole new can of worms. Just know I believe everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, just as long as they keep it away from me. Thumbsup

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes WillHopp's post
01-04-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 05:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:45 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So you basically confirmed my point, thanks.

Like I wrote earlier, I have no problem with people believing what they want, I just think taking Christians to task for a document that is completely not of their creation makes no sense. And the fact that they were exposed to this document doesn't make them guilty of its transgressions or preposterous content.

The fact that you have explained this document as essentially being whatever you want it to be is typical religious nonsense that allows the believers to talk out of both sides of their mouths. It's the equivalent of god getting credit for all good things that happen but none of the blame for bad things because satan/mysterious ways/etc.

Oh, see... I take the flood as a figurative story. But if you think its literal, then... I guess I just can't respond. Sorry. Sad

That's not what he said. Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
01-04-2016, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2016 09:36 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 07:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
Yes, we can and do interpret the Torah, we can amend certain practices, and yes, we can be wrong. It’s okay to be wrong, as long as we do it as a team. There’s a Jewish parable about these Rabbis arguing over the interpretation of some Jewish law at some large assembly. The first Rabbi thought it was to be understood one way, and the second Rabbi thought it was a different way. Most of the scholars agreed with the second Rabbi, and the majority won out.

The first Rabbi called up to G-d and asked, “Lord, can you explain how we were supposed to interpret this law? This other guy is getting it all wrong.” G-d replied, “You have it right, everyone else is wrong.” And everyone in the room hollered up at G-d saying, “No! You gave us the Torah, and you told us to interpret it the way we wanted! You don’t get to come back and tell us that we’re interpreting it wrong!” And G-d cried with joy because his children finally *got it*. The second Rabbi’s ruling was upheld even though it was wrong.

This is Judaism. We don’t blindly follow G-d. We’re not supposed to. We live the law, not G-d. The law is there for our purposes, and the Torah belongs to us now. Judaism is a flexible religion that is designed to grow with us. It's not supposed to hinder our growth or stunt our intellect. It’s our right to interpret it, and it is absolutely our right to have decided that slavery is immoral and to outlaw it.
...

A bit like the Jewish god ... as a consultant.

The delicious irony is that I was delivering this message in Pakistan this week... an entirely non-Jewish audience.

They have to know the best practice (law) to get through the theory exam (they all passed) but in the real life practical world there is often no point in changing what they already do.

For example, the official word 'priority' is used in the text book but in practice they all use the word 'severity'. OK fine, one cannot severitise in the same way one can prioritise but if everyone already "do it as a team" then the efficiency and effectiveness goals have already been achieved.

As the consultant, you can point out where best practices are not being followed and the potential consequences (costs, risks etc.) of that but it's up to the organisation / enterprise / tribe to act on the recommendations, or not.

If they don't, they won't be as effective and/or efficient as they potentially could be.

A group/tribe/business unit is not always able to implement the changes needed to raise up their maturity/capability level ... the main resistance to change being cultural.

In a society/tribe the levels are akin to Kohlberg's six stages.

[Image: BBVA-OpenMind-Kohlberg-six-stages.jpg]

I'd rate the Jewish approach as a stage 5.5.

In Pakistan, they cannot achieve that level yet because their client is behaving at a Stage 2.

(01-04-2016 07:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
I don’t mean to sound obtuse, but if our stories are offensive to you, why don’t you just stop reading them? It’s kind of like someone reading my diary and getting annoyed at how I live my life. Just stop reading my diary if you don’t like it. Problem solved. Smile

Here's the kicker ... assessments!

So I was doing an assessment of the Catholic Church and read their official policy documents. But one also has to do the cultural/behavioural assessment because it may not be aligned to the official best practice, so I was reading one priest's diary.

He had a very neat and tidy (plus points for that) accurate and concise list of all the choir boys he was going to rape.

I didn't like it so I stopped reading it.

Problem solved.

Dodgy

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like DLJ's post
01-04-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 09:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 07:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don’t mean to sound obtuse, but if our stories are offensive to you, why don’t you just stop reading them? It’s kind of like someone reading my diary and getting annoyed at how I live my life. Just stop reading my diary if you don’t like it. Problem solved. Smile

Here's the kicker ... assessments!

So I was doing an assessment of the Catholic Church and read their official policy documents. But one also has to do the cultural/behavioural assessment because it may not be aligned to the official best practice, so I was reading one priest's diary.

He had a very neat and tidy (plus points for that) accurate and concise list of all the choir boys he was going to rape.

I didn't like it so I stopped reading it.

Problem solved.

Dodgy

Touche, DLJ!

You see... that's why I like you so much. You're just so damn smart. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
01-04-2016, 09:35 PM
RE: Noah's Ark & Other Things
(01-04-2016 09:32 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 09:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's the kicker ... assessments!

So I was doing an assessment of the Catholic Church and read their official policy documents. But one also has to do the cultural/behavioural assessment because it may not be aligned to the official best practice, so I was reading one priest's diary.

He had a very neat and tidy (plus points for that) accurate and concise list of all the choir boys he was going to rape.

I didn't like it so I stopped reading it.

Problem solved.

Dodgy

Touche, DLJ!

You see... that's why I like you so much. You're just so damn smart. Smile

Yeah, thanks DLJ, I just didn't have the energy to say it, and much more. I'll just let this go for now.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: