Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
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27-01-2014, 05:59 PM
Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
This is going to be my first part of my scientific refutation of Noah's flood. As you know the flood is the centerpiece of creationist. It is the foundation of all of creationism in Christianity. It's also in the quran but there creationism is for another time. Jesus is the only thing more important to them then the flood. But yet again he's important for many other christian evolutionary biologist. The creationist say that after the flood all the "kinds" of animals got off the ark and maid all the species of animals we have today. However there is one thing creationist fail to remember and that's the population bottleneck and the founder effect. It would be better to explain the founder effect and population bottlenecks in full detail.

The founder effect is when a species with one specific trait end up moving into a different area in which they end up with only those traits being passed on. For example lets take Hyenas. If there are a group of light furred hyenas and dark furred hyenas, and we moved all the dark furred hyenas to a different area in which no hyenas live but can survive. Eventually due to the fact that there are more dark furred hyenas then light furred over time the whole population will become dark furred only. Another real life example of this is with a population of Hawaiian crickets that lost their ability to chirp.(1) The founder effect is also usually associated with the population bottleneck.

A population bottleneck is what happens when a event ends up lowering the population to a point where genetic diversity ends up lowering. If the hyenas in an area end up going through a point in which their population lowers and the survivors had light fur, then the genetics for dark fur are lost for a long time in the line of evolutionary history. Our species ended up going through a population bottleneck.(2) A bottleneck can have severe effects on the diversity of organisms even in the population of 100,000. But what about a population of around 2 and 7 of what creationist call kinds? Can all the species that ever existed come from only 2 basal forms of each family? Well no.

The founder effect and Noah's ark have a effect do to the area the animal is in. For example the two basal Hyenas would have ended up in where they first moved. The founder effect limits the diversity of a population based on what organisms live in that area. So if short haired,tall hyenas were able to survive then due to this effect only these types of hyenas would survive for a while. Also a founder effect can cause genetic deficiencies.(3) This would also mean do to the effect that these hyenas would have had genetic deficiencies. And with only two hyena kinds as the population then I'm sure that there would be a problem.

The population bottleneck also gives the flood a problem. First not every organism only the planet has a genetic bottleneck, and the some that do have there population bottlenecks years after the supposed creation flood. The florida panther for example.(4) Also population bottlenecks lower the population diversity of an organism. So that would mean that all species alive today had to have evolved at a rate so fast it would be super evolution, especially if it's only in the span of 4,000 years. One can argue that some evolutionary process can happen fast. However if we are going to take population bottlenecks into account then it's different. Each generation of a population bottleneck loses diversity.(5) When they recover they can only work with what they got. Cheetahs are said to have cheated the bottleneck though? So whats the point of me saying this.(6) The problem is population. Due to the fact that creationist tend to look at only two of each kind for all instead of two of each unclean kind and seven of every clean kind and foul, I'll use the normal one. The cheetahs have more then only 2, there bottleneck ended up in thousands. In the diagram below on the page four source 6 it shows what happens with a population with more then two animals of a species vs about seven or more.

The flood can do nothing to explain this away. A creationist will just try to ignore the facts and try to twist the sources I gave to match their agenda weather it be through quote mining or misrepresentations of the data. As I always say scrutiny is aloud. I would also like you to point me to sources that show how I was wrong and that I can learn from my mistakes and become a more accurate person. Also no grammer nazis (even though they'll appear anyway). Thanks for reading.

1.http://beacon-center.org/blog/2012/01/03/beacon-researchers-at-work-how-the-cricket-lost-its-song/

2.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/06/3/l_063_03.html

3.http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/1/2.long

4.http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13490-florida-panther-population-fell-to-just-six.html#.UuboZRAo7IU

5.http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIID3Bottlenecks.shtml

6.http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/070701_cheetah

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28-01-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
*clears throat*

God did it.

When discussing a world populated with magic, or events spurred on by magic, trying to explain something rationally is a joke.

When Jesus died, zombies rose up and walked into the city.
Trying to bring in legitimate history and biology to explain why not only did it not happen, but it could never happen, is just a joke.

People who accept these stories from the start, with no evidence or science, will not reject these stories due to evidence or science.
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28-01-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
(28-01-2014 04:23 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  *clears throat*

God did it.

When discussing a world populated with magic, or events spurred on by magic, trying to explain something rationally is a joke.

When Jesus died, zombies rose up and walked into the city.
Trying to bring in legitimate history and biology to explain why not only did it not happen, but it could never happen, is just a joke.

People who accept these stories from the start, with no evidence or science, will not reject these stories due to evidence or science.

In some way they know that magic won't work forever. If they keep using magic it makes their position look fiction. Thats why they try creation "science". Also i'd give a little hope. I mean many atheist once believed that the flood was real. The leaders like ken ham never will, but maybe some of the more open minded christians might listen and ask questions.Tongue

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02-02-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
Was stonehenge built before or after the flood?

I think you know what's coming next...
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02-02-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
(02-02-2014 04:40 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Was stonehenge built before or after the flood?

I think you know what's coming next...

I actually don't know please explainConsider

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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02-02-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
I'm pretty sure Stonehenge and Newgrange in Ireland were built before the flood. There's no way a flood that can rip the earth up so much to cause all these high mountains wouldn't be able to wipe out these two ancient structures.
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02-02-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
I disagree. The "centerpiece of creationism" is the idiotic "my grandpappy wasn't an ape and you ain't telling me otherwise!" Followed by fingers in ears, na-na na na-na. I don't know where you're getting "flood" out of the deal, and my experience in dealing with creationists having the scientific literacy to even parse your post is essentially zero.

A for effort, though.

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02-02-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: Noah's Flood vs Population bottlenecks and the foundereffect
(02-02-2014 07:06 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I disagree. The "centerpiece of creationism" is the idiotic "my grandpappy wasn't an ape and you ain't telling me otherwise!" Followed by fingers in ears, na-na na na-na. I don't know where you're getting "flood" out of the deal, and my experience in dealing with creationists having the scientific literacy to even parse your post is essentially zero.

A for effort, though.

Thanks for the A at least better then nothing I guess

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